One Hour Conversation with Fredrik Tuxen this morning...

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
One of the luckiest things that ever happened to me is how I found science through scientists.

Fredrik is at the top of that list.

We talked at length this morning about all things TrackMan, and I got some several great answers and insights.

#1. TrackMan reports a clubface angle that is well inside 0.4° accurate.

#2. TrackMan reports an angle of attack that is inside of 0.4° accurate.

It measures the bottom part of the golf swing for things like angle of attack, swing direction, and swing plane. He said, "We take from 7:30 to 4:30 and we measure that path of the club;s center of mass very accurately. The hardest one to get dead on all the time is angle of attack, but we get that within 0.4°."

The measurement for Angle of attack is determined by the plane angle, and direction, and like Fredrik said. "We know precisely when impact occurs on that arc, that is where we get the angle of attack measurement."

The reason AofA is so hard to get closer, is the fact the the path of the club is changing 0.8° during the impact interval. The radar sees around the clubhead, and knows when impact occurs to within less than half of a half a millisecond. He still feels that one day they will get even closer.

We also talked about the incorrect statements out there in web-land, and that TrackMan gives "bad" numbers on off-center strikes.

Not so, says Tuxen. "When the ball is hit far from the vertical center of gravity of the club, it twists in the way you (BMANZ) talked about in your 'It's Math' video. The face angle number reported is very accurate. The confusion lies in the gear effect that takes place which has the effect of changing the spin axis from what it would have been on a center strike."

For guys like myself, Kevin Shields and other users of the device, that is a well know fact. But there are always those who seem to not want the machine to be as accurate as it is.

"We are always trying to get better," said Tuxen, and that gives us something to do always."

Maybe that's why me and Fredrik get along so well, that's my credo as well.

—Brian Manzella
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I don't even understand a little what the deal is with the gear effect. It's the easiest thing on the machine. I figured out toe and heel hits the first week. It never disappointed in that regard. I wonder about those saying it gives funny numbers even know what funny numbers are?

Tuxen is all class, one of the nicest guys you will meet.
 
Another great post! If +/- .4 isn't accurrate enough then people have unrealistic expectations. The smart players keep using this device to get better and speed up their progress.
 
Gear Effect effects the Spin Axis, not the D Plane. TrackMan reports the D Plane with stunning accuracy. I'm convinced. But you can't fault a guy for asking how it works. You did. Thanks for the answers.
 
Gear Effect is just one of the effects of non-centred contact. I still maintain (and hope that Tuxen covers this in the Anti-Summit II video - hope to watch it late tonight) that there is an effect on the 3D Launch Angle as well.

Also, it's evident that Gear Effect is a factor in almost every single golf shot. It's effects simply need to be considered in addition to the same shot's D-Plane.

It'd be very nice to quantify the margins of error for each of the other variables that Trackman measures, and would probably do a lot to satisfy the naysayers. Well done TM!
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
There is a lot of gear effect talk from Tuxen in the AS2 video, and very detailed discussions on slippage, rolling effect, and friction on different shots and different clubs.
 

TeeAce

New member
Thank's for asking those thing Brian and giving the answer, even they didn't really answer to my questions straight.

My questions hasn't have really anything to do with accuracy and I haven't seen any reason for doubt them. Anyway I think that saying "just before impact is fair enough for me, so it means after impact movements got no affect for measurements. The question I made about that AoA is from how long period those two needed points are taken. I think you understand what I mean with those two needed points.

But if I understood right it's really short period and just before impact, so it's fine. In that case even the tail of the driver got no time to confuse the measurement.
 
Another great post! If +/- .4 isn't accurrate enough then people have unrealistic expectations. The smart players keep using this device to get better and speed up their progress.

No quibble with the margin for error - but am I right in saying (based on TrackMan - TrackMan Pro) that the face angle and dynamic loft data include the effects of any clubhead twisting as a result of off-centre impact?

In which case, I assume "the issue with gear effect" is how accurately you can determine what face angle/dynamic loft a swing delivers independently of the ball-club interaction.
 
No quibble with the margin for error - but am I right in saying (based on TrackMan - TrackMan Pro) that the face angle and dynamic loft data include the effects of any clubhead twisting as a result of off-centre impact?

In which case, I assume "the issue with gear effect" is how accurately you can determine what face angle/dynamic loft a swing delivers independently of the ball-club interaction.

I believe the answer would be yes and gear effect is factored into the calculation for face angle (and maybe even dynamic loft). I'll defer to Brian and company for technical answers.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Interestingly, NOT ONE PERSON AT THE ANT-SUMMIT spent one second debating TrackMan's accuracy.

If you are smart enough to come to the AS, you don;t waste your time with questions like that.

Tuxen spoke at length about gear effect though, and there is horizontal and vertical gear effect, which of course many of you realize.
 
No quibble with the margin for error - but am I right in saying (based on TrackMan - TrackMan Pro) that the face angle and dynamic loft data include the effects of any clubhead twisting as a result of off-centre impact?

In which case, I assume "the issue with gear effect" is how accurately you can determine what face angle/dynamic loft a swing delivers independently of the ball-club interaction.

Read this birly. It kind of addresses your point.

David Howell
 
But if I understood right it's really short period and just before impact, so it's fine. In that case even the tail of the driver got no time to confuse the measurement.

Didn't Tuxen state that it measures using the club's "center of mass". If so, the tail couldn't "confuse the measurement".
 
MJStrong - yes, that's more like it. Except that, in as much as people are arguing, I think the argument is about whether, or how much, TM would be improved if it reported impact face angle in addition to what Brian calls "Effective Face".

Since Brian calls "Effective Face" the "THE CLUBFACE POSITION WHEN IT MATTERS" - you'd have to infer that he doesn't think that face angle at impact is a big deal.

From the point of view of measuring how well someone controls their clubface alignment, I'd think that impact face angle is a better measure because it's not corrupted with the effects of non-centered impact.

I've heard that skilled TM operators can estimate the extent of any heel or toe miss pretty accurately. Maybe the same guys can estimate impact face angle with similar accuracy. If that's the case, then all's good - but in all the back and forth I've seen on this argument, I haven't really seen this point clearly answered one way or the other.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Since Brian calls "Effective Face" the "THE CLUBFACE POSITION WHEN IT MATTERS" - you'd have to infer that he doesn't think that face angle at impact is a big deal.

How this one for ya?

THE BALL DOESN'T THINK IT IS A BIG DEAL!!!

Most of the time, with a club with any decent MOI and any decent strike-point, it is virtually the same damn thing.

From the point of view of measuring how well someone controls their clubface alignment, I'd think that impact face angle is a better measure because it's not corrupted with the effects of non-centered impact.

I am going to post up 20 different golfers last 20 inches pre-impact, and you know what?

They all look pretty much the same.

All of this closure stuff is marketing.

...but in all the back and forth I've seen on this argument, I haven't really seen this point clearly answered one way or the other.

It is a non-argument.

For 25,000 US dollars, you get a machine more accurate than the best ball strikers on earth.

And a teacher with a clue is suddenly, 300% better at his job.
 
I'm not sure how it does, to be honest. I think that's a different issue.

I did say "addresses" and not "answers".

Using TM is about using the data for improvement, no?. Howell has sussed that his face angle is not inconsistent, rather his centredness of hit. So that's what he needed to know, and current TM data provided it to him.
 
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