Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
How come?
One Hour Conversation with Fredrik Tuxen this morning...
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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How come?
birly-shirly
New
I know the ball doesn't care about "impact face" in isolation. But I can see why a player would care IF THEY HAVE CLUBFACE ISSUES (remembering that David Howell in everyone's favourite case-study did NOT).
Anyway, where do blade irons fall in relation to your statement? Or are you just assuming that anyone playing blades shouldn't have lower echelon issues like clubface control? Do blades have "Decent MOI" or not?
As for decent strike-point, I think you're saying that if the golfer is basically consistent in terms of where they impact on the clubface, then you can exclude clubface rotation issues. Which is fine, so far as it goes.
But what if they're not that consistent? Do they get more short-term benefit out of practicing with a sharpie or impact tape?
That's obvious, innit? Everyone here knows how flaky video analysis is
And I'm not really interested in arguing the point in relation to impact factors.OK. I think I know what you're driving at. A couple of points to clarify though. Are you saying that there is no significant difference in the rate of clubface rotation in the zone 20 inches either side of impact? Let's say between, Els or Mickelson and Furyk or Dustin J?
And if you think high end swings are similar in terms of rotation through impact, what about less-high-end swings? Are (non-slicing) amateurs rotating more through the ball than tour pros?
No argument with any of this. But still interested in the other points.
fadegolfer
New member
Ive always thought the inability to measure rate of clubface closure has been a problem with trackman. A person could be stalling and flipping it though impact, with a high rate of clubface closure and time it right (mickelson type release), and produce the same numbers on Trackman as a player who has a much more stable clubface through impact like furyk, or toms. Obviously the differences could be seen on video, but how does trackman distingiush between someones who flipping it with a high rate of closure, and someone who driving it through more the pivot and has a slower rate of closure?
Fade. I'll take a shot at this, although I'm sure Brian or one of the guys will do a better job of it.
I think it's best if you look at this backwards. If a guy has a consistent ball flight that he's happy with then does it matter how he's lining the club up for impact? If he can do it consistently, then he's got a winner and the fact that TM can't distinguish how it got there is moot. If the ball is flying all over the planet, as often happens with guys who suffer from poor face control, then TM will pick up on that in a jiffy and you can make the changes as per.
It would be like saying a guy has a rubbishy plane on the way down, but lines it up and pures it EVERY time. TM can't see that but the ballflight etc would be a giveaway if it consistently good.
Just my ideas...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Stalling and Flipping?
Come on.
THERE IS NO WAY TO PRODUCE THESE NUMBERS:
For example: SIX IRON - 0° club path, 0° club face, 3.5° angle of attack, 19.5° dynamic loft, 88 mph clubhead speed,
or if you wish
SIX IRON - 3.5° club path, 2° club face, 3.5° angle of attack, 19.5° dynamic loft, 95 mph clubhead speed
WITHOUT LOOKING THROUGH THE BALL ENTIRELY LIKE A TOUR PLAYER!!!
This golfer that can trick TrackMan is a MYTH!
Rate of closure???
Nobody that can teach a lick is trying to have a decent golfer bring the club into the ball with the face wide open and slam it shut.
AND NOBODY WHO CAN PLAY A LICK DOES THAT!!!
Geez.....
Come on.
THERE IS NO WAY TO PRODUCE THESE NUMBERS:
For example: SIX IRON - 0° club path, 0° club face, 3.5° angle of attack, 19.5° dynamic loft, 88 mph clubhead speed,
or if you wish
SIX IRON - 3.5° club path, 2° club face, 3.5° angle of attack, 19.5° dynamic loft, 95 mph clubhead speed
WITHOUT LOOKING THROUGH THE BALL ENTIRELY LIKE A TOUR PLAYER!!!
This golfer that can trick TrackMan is a MYTH!
Rate of closure???
Nobody that can teach a lick is trying to have a decent golfer bring the club into the ball with the face wide open and slam it shut.
AND NOBODY WHO CAN PLAY A LICK DOES THAT!!!
Geez.....
Dariusz J.
New member
People usually associate the rate of closure wrongly in relation to time. Someone with a strong crossover release will never deliver the clubace open and contact and make it being closed at separation because it is physically impossible to act this way. I believe the clubface at impact (between contact and separation) will look identically no matter what release type is being used in case of a good shot.
The point is to associate problems with crossover release's rate of closure to the fact that it is more prone to deliver the clubface to the ball being too open or too closed because the clubface does not stay square to the arc through the whole impact zone and errors are much more probable than in case of push release type and even to slap-hinge release type.
Cheers
fadegolfer
New member
Nobody who can play a lick does that? Thats EXACTLY what Mickelson does and that was my point. How can trackman tell the difference between someone like mickelson who comes in with the face open and then flips/slams it shut to square it, and a guy like furyk who has a MUCH more stable clubface through impact? Heres a video of Phil, face is wide open and he slams it shut with his hands, toe of the club closing rapidly Phil Mickelson - Body Turn - YouTube. Phil could go on trackman with his stall and flip release, and if his timing was good produce the same numbers as a guy with a who had a less timing based release.
natep
New
So what? TM reports impact, its not supposed to be promoting some swing theory. The ball doesnt care what Mickelson's release looks like, and he doesnt have to forfeit his millions in winnings because his release isnt up to your standards.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If a person has club face issues it would be seen through the consistency feature. Natep is right, it doesn't care about the "how". It will just tell you if the face is consistently squaring up or not. Why do you need it to tell you what release type the player is using? I remember not long ago there was a group that said any "handle raiser" had to have "high closure rate". Mickelsons face issues could be figured out a lot by the help of what numbers don't match up. I, for one, would love to see his numbers through the bag.
And another thing, it gets you away from preference. If Phil is talented enough to be consistent with a pattern that differs with anybody's preference, so be it. The numbers won't lie.
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Dariusz J.
New member
Exactly. But it tells you, simultaneously, that the numbers are not enough to look at. If it was this way Mickelson's motion would be classified as a great model in kinetics despite his crossover release and its causes - because he produces great numbers.
The other side of medal is, however, that he is obviously talented enough to play great golf with crossover release - which makes him rather a warning for average guy than a model to follow, if you know what I mean, Kevin.
Cheers
They're not? If the numbers are great, ergo, the swing is great. Is that not correct? This is where I'm getting a little confused, I suppose.
Unless this is a backdoor way of saying that because Mickelson's numbers are great but he struggles with waywardness then the numbers are spurious... In fact, mark me down as more than a little confused.
Dariusz, I'm not critiquing your contention, just looking for a little more clarification, I guess...
I apologize for taking up valuable time on this thread, but I'm desperately trying to learn this ASAP...
Dariusz J.
New member
Oliver, his swing (its mechanics) is great for him because he is a very talented golfer in this sphere (say, has a great ability do deal with timing issues). Despite it even he has big problems with consistency.
It sort of underlines that an average hacker without half of Mickelson's talent will fail undoubtedly with this mechanics while benefitting with a less timing-dependent mechanics.
Have I answered your question well ?
Cheers
Well, kind of. I'm aware that Mickelson's release might not be a good model for the average chap to follow. I think common sense, rather than Trackman, would be enough for that conclusion. However, my post was more directed at your first paragraph, when you state that the numbers may not be enough to to draw any valid conclusions about Mickelson. Still not quite sure what you're getting at there. Once again, no critique on my part, just looking to learn.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I am going to say this the best way I how....
Y'all are full of pee-pee ka-ka.
Philly Mic is now a hacker?
Y'all are full of pee-pee ka-ka.
Philly Mic is now a hacker?
...Not at all.
magicmarker
New
Phil's game has withstood the test of time better than most so I don't know how you can judge the ineffectiveness of his release. He is not a one way shot maker. He takes chances some won't take because his short game can save him time after time. How many of the longer hitters on tour are known for their consistent accuracy? Does anyone here think for a second that he is always setting up for a straight shot, gmafb.
I don't even see the supposed crossover in the video posted and from the angle provided I don't know how anyone else can either, maybe someone can break it down for me. I would take that arthritic swing of his in a heartbeat if I liked to look at the other side of the ball.
I don't even see the supposed crossover in the video posted and from the angle provided I don't know how anyone else can either, maybe someone can break it down for me. I would take that arthritic swing of his in a heartbeat if I liked to look at the other side of the ball.
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