Orthodox or Not?

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Brian Manzella

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I started a thread yesterday that started a war on the forum.

It was simple, I believe in athletic golf swings. The kind that get weight off of the front foot on the backswing, and use the movement back into and out of the ground for power.

I believe in the extra power from shoulder movement—as opposed to back movement—which is easier to create with more upright and free arm swing golf swings.

So, I posted some swings (the ones below) and all hell broke loose.

Before the new forum goes up, and potentially no real open discussion is allowed, we will try one more time with the following "thread."

But, here are the rules, NO NAME CALLING, one warning, then a ban forever. No talking about "things in the past on this or any other forum," one warning, then a ban forever.

No mention of other instructors, unless it is respectful.

I am POSITIVE I can moderate ONE thread.

So here it goes....(watch yourself, or a ban is coming).


Why have the following golf swings produced so many great golf shots and great golf?

Considering what is being taught in many places, their swings are said to be "non-optimal."

Are their swings less than ideal, or just a viable option for the right golfer?

jmiller74.jpg

leehovernot.jpg

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notripod.jpg

jackhovernot.jpg


sneadtripod.gif

stewmanz.jpg

realgolf.jpg

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B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
GolfHappy said:
I have a question Brian - all the pictures show players hitting woods/drivers, is it the same for irons?
Click to expand...

Good question.

There are plenty of swings on YouTube that would be considered to be too much movement by some.

But for now, can we say that these swings are EXCELLENT SWINGS with DESIRABLE elements for driver swings?
 
S

SteveT

Guest
BManz ... with due respect ....

You say: "I believe in athletic golf swings. The kind that get weight off of the front foot on the backswing, and use the movement back into and out of the ground for power."

I recall reading somewhere, that some LD competitors are not able to significantly shift much of their weight from their back leg to their front leg fast enough because the speed of the arm and club swing is too quick for complete weight shift. I can't find the reference for this, but apparently force plate testing underfoot confirmed this unique condition.

I'm not saying that tour and good recreational golfers should not shift to the front foot, but what I suspect is that there are such exceptions that deserve scientific analysis to better explain the kinetic sequencing of the golfswing.

Are you aware of this, because I have experimented doing this with a long long tee of course, and it works somewhat but I don't prescribe it?!

I expect your scientific group explained the difference between static "weight" and dynamic "thrust" and "shear torque" when considering ground reaction forces to generate a powerful golfswing.
 
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Brian Manzella

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Another one...

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SteveT

Guest
BManz ... you say:

"I believe in the extra power from shoulder movement—as opposed to back movement—which is easier to create with more upright and free arm swing golf swings.'

You are scientifically correct re shoulder movement ... but could you expand on the "more upright" aspect. Does this mean a more upright stance like in a baseball swing and a more horizontal swing path/plane ... or are you referring to a "more upright and free" arm swing??

Thanks...
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
SteveT said:
"I believe in the extra power from shoulder movement—as opposed to back movement—which is easier to create with more upright and free arm swing golf swings.'

You are scientifically correct re shoulder movement ... but could you expand on the "more upright" aspect. Does this mean a more upright stance like in a baseball swing and a more horizontal swing path/plane ... or are you referring to a "more upright and free" arm swing??

Thanks...
Click to expand...

It means shoulder movement separate from back movement.

You simply can't move your shoulder as far when your arm swing across your chest....

But for now, let's just talk about one simple thing:

Can we say that these swings are EXCELLENT SWINGS with DESIRABLE elements for driver swings?
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Brian Manzella said:
It means shoulder movement separate from back movement.

You simply can't move your shoulder as far when your arm swing across your chest....

But for now, let's just talk about one simple thing:

Can we say that these swings are EXCELLENT SWINGS with DESIRABLE elements for driver swings?
Click to expand...

Absolutely .. but it takes a sharp-eyed instructor to apply the proper elements to the physical shape and capabilities of the golfer. I don't believe one can subjectively claim to have any of these elements in their homemade golfswing even if they take 2D vids of their swing. That judgment is only possible coming from the objective view of a qualified instructor who has a scientific basis to his/her observations.

Now back to the shoulder and back movements ... could you please define what you mean with these terms because that's where my confusion lies. I'm imagining back movement as the linear movement of the golfer while shifting from the rear to front foot, while shoulder movement is only rotation.

If you can help me on that so I can understand "You simply can't move your shoulder as far when your arm swing across your chest" .. and put it all together ... scientifically ...!!!
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
SteveT said:
Absolutely .. but it takes a sharp-eyed instructor to apply the proper elements to the physical shape and capabilities of the golfer. I don't believe one can subjectively claim to have any of these elements in their homemade golfswing even if they take 2D vids of their swing. That judgment is only possible coming from the objective view of a qualified instructor who has a scientific basis to his/her observations.

Now back to the shoulder and back movements ... could you please define what you mean with these terms because that's where my confusion lies. I'm imagining back movement as the linear movement of the golfer while shifting from the rear to front foot, while shoulder movement is only rotation.

If you can help me on that so I can understand "You simply can't move your shoulder as far when your arm swing across your chest" .. and put it all together ... scientifically ...!!!
Click to expand...

Call me at 502-417-4653 and I'll explain it to you.
 
B

Brian Manzella

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Looking for the fans of the centered and left shifting backswing pivots....

Can we say that these swings are EXCELLENT SWINGS with DESIRABLE elements for driver swings?
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Good stuff .. BManz ...!!!!

Brian Manzella said:
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Click to expand...

Looking at Ricky's foot action and body shifting, it's not only deceptive, it's also difficult to determine how much weight and/or thrust he has on each foot throughout the golfswing.

One could conclude that when he gets into his downswing, he has his weight mass on his front foot, but he is significantly thrusting off his back foot ... particularly when you look carefully at his leg muscular action ... but it's still tough to differentiate.

I would love to have force plates under his feet ... what do you think ???
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
I think you can argue that a good metric to measure what driver swings are desirable are those that lead in total driving. Here's a list of the top 10 leaders in total driving in the 2010 season of the PGA Tour:
PGATOUR.com - PGA TOUR Statistics
Here are the driver swings I could find good and recent (2008 season and onwards) footage for:
Boo Weekley: http://www.youtube.com/v/sAjZR4uk49w
Hunter Mahan: http://www.youtube.com/v/4Ho7Q3-nkzQ
Kenny Perry: http://www.youtube.com/v/s1DdVEZV-CY
John Rollins: http://www.youtube.com/v/zpO_vf1Mwt0
Ryan Moore: http://www.youtube.com/v/MBYZcHS7Ki0
Joe Durant: http://www.youtube.com/v/2l1i9jyUJ9Q
J.J. Henry: http://www.youtube.com/v/iehCgsOppxI
Bo Van Pelt: http://www.youtube.com/v/DNgQj7amqmQ
Rory McIlroy: http://www.youtube.com/v/8Sg-enFn6L0
Scott McCarron: http://www.youtube.com/v/Q1ANVzTTsCw
Rickie Fowler: http://www.youtube.com/v/m7dOThIKPWk
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That's 11 of the top 24 (I arbitrarily set the cut-off at top 25) total drivers. With the exception of Mahan and Henry, all of these players seem to get the weight off the left foot in the backswing. Depending on the definition of upright, I don't think you would consider anyone except for Moore and maybe Perry to have upright arms (can't tell with Van Pelt; if your working definition is left arm above the shoulder line). I think all the players except for Henry and Fowler appear to have free arm swings. All of the players appear to be using the ground for power.
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All of the swings you've posted are of players whose driving abilities (either length or total driving) have been greatly appreciated, and for good reason. However, a lot of the parameters that have been presented by you seem vague and as such, I sought out a more definite metric (total driving) that unfortunately still left me analyzing using similarly vague mechanical language. This is a really interesting topic and I'll be following along closely.
 
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ZAP

ZAP

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The dynamics are great. Based on my knowledge I would say the answer is yes. Why do you think shot putters wind up first?
 
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