Orthodox or Not?

[drewyallop]

wonder if this group of some of the best players who ever walked the planet really provide much insight into methodologies in helping joe six pack break 85 at his local course?

Good question.

I can only answer from experience. Brian wants to bring back a full-blooded swing. When this old high-handicapper looked at those pictures and videos my first thoughts were "I can't get there", "I can't get back to the ball from there", "for young, low-handicappers only".

After the first lesson with Brian I knew I had a path problem leading to inconsistent ball striking, leading to fear and caution, leading to centred, restricted, constipated, powerless swing.

Brian fixed the path problem. After much practice, path became dependable; result - less fear and more going for it.

Power increased, confidence increased and I suddenly realized that I was starting to incorporate other BM concepts: lagging clubhead takeaway, moving into the right leg, lifting the arms high, counterfall, twistaway.

Did I look like the pictures? No, obviously, but the same principles were in play and any difference was a matter of degree.

Best thing though the swing opened up and was more effortless. I remember BM commenting in another thread that he never teaches "holding" any part of the body. Don't hold the right wrist bend, don't hold the left wrist flat, don't hold your head centred and so on. I realized that "fear and holding" was what my swing had become all about. So nice to at last relax.

Knudson said some place that good golfers reach the end of the swing totally relaxed, all energy released. Golf becomes a lot more fun when it is played like this.

So yes, I agree Brian, the principles are sound and sound for all golfers; however, it seems to me that path and clubface control has to be mastered before injecting more dynamism.


Drew

 

[Seanmx]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_qRG1HRh4o[/media]

British Amateur champion of 1946 Jimmy Bruen - His career was cut short by a wrist injury. He was a legendry ball striker with a unique swing known as the ‘Bruen Loop’.

See following link for bio TeeTime Ireland: Irish Golf History

 

[ekennedy]

I love, love, love homemade golf swings. It forces an instructor to find what's "right" with the swing, as opposed to what's wrong. I once posted that I thought too many people work on their backswings when impact is all that really matters. The camera angles are a little skewed, but I'm guessing he was pretty darn good at impact.

That being said, I would love to hear Kostis break down Bruen's swing with the Konika Minolta Biz-Hub Swingvision 2000. Just tell him that his name is Norm Weinstein and he's a 22hcp from Pasadena playing in the Bob Hope.

 

[wulsy]

^^^ekennedy. LOL.

But seriously, its swings like these which tell us the most about the golf swing.

 

[bax1865]

For now, can we say that these swings are EXCELLENT SWINGS with DESIRABLE elements for driver swings?

Yes. Maximum power requires maximum torque. Maximum power requires maximum transfer of force from behind the ball to through the ball. Maximum power requires an arc that is wide and deep and is in synch with the bodies axis of rotation. This is what I see from most of the golf swings that are shown, especiallly from the players that overpowered the course like Nicklaus. Palmer, Daly, etc.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks guys.

Obviously, the swings posted are all wonderful, individual examples of how to swing a driver.

It is not like many current teachers would teach.

The motion in the swings are something that almost all golfers can learn from.

 

[cwdlaw223]

BMan -

Do we wall have our own "golf swing DNA" that we can barely alter? There are so many different swings that produce good results and this thread shows that different swings work for different people. It seems like our brains/body are all wired differently for a golf swing.

My swing is almost the same as it was when I started playing 26 years ago. I know more about my swing now then ever, however, under pressure, my swing is still basically the same. So many people look to change their swing without realizing the proper cause/effect of a golf shot with the new ball flight laws.

 

[tongzilla]

Why have the following golf swings produced so many great golf shots and great golf?

Considering what is being taught in many places, their swings are said to be "non-optimal."

Are their swings less than ideal, or just a viable option for the right golfer?

Obviously a lot of good stuff in these swings. But you can't just pick out the good stuff and try to use it on someone...the golf swing is a big puzzle...and the puzzle is different for everyone...these guys have pieced together their own swing...you can't just take a piece of their puzzle and try to fit it on to another golfer.

Question for you guys: if you take the average Joe 100+ golfer and asked them to copy Bubba Watson vs SnT model model for a month with no coaching (just copying from video footage), do you think on average they will play better copying Bubba Watson/young Jack Nicklaus or copying SnT? Although I prefer Bubba/Nicklaus/etc. swings, I think this average Joe 100+ golfer with no coaching will on average play better trying copying the SnT pattern.

 

[b90jos]

I like those golf swings.. Paul Casey also has a lot of lateral movement in his swing.. raises the left heel then in transition stomps it down and hammers the ball..... I think Tiger Woods has the most athletic swing.. Well because hes an athlete.. .Dustin Johnson as well...(but woods and johnson swings are diff from the ones posted). I use to raise the left heel and then my instructor told me it was bad.. I only did it with the driver though..

 

[mgranato]

Obviously a lot of good stuff in these swings. But you can't just pick out the good stuff and try to use it on someone...the golf swing is a big puzzle...and the puzzle is different for everyone...these guys have pieced together their own swing...you can't just take a piece of their puzzle and try to fit it on to another golfer.

Question for you guys: if you take the average Joe 100+ golfer and asked them to copy Bubba Watson vs SnT model model for a month with no coaching (just copying from video footage), do you think on average they will play better copying Bubba Watson/young Jack Nicklaus or copying SnT? Although I prefer Bubba/Nicklaus/etc. swings, I think this average Joe 100+ golfer with no coaching will on average play better trying copying the SnT pattern.

Don't know if I agree. If you say copy Bubba/Jack or copy Charlie Wie, I think most 20+ cappers would have a hard time getting it airborn with Charlie's swing.

 

[Ringer]

It's about standards.

First you have to decide if you even want them.

Then if you do want them, you have to set them to be broad enough to encompass as many great swings as possible but eliminate the "bad" moves that amateurs make so you know what to fix.

There is another way to think of it though. Instead of "standards" you think "optimal for the player". Anyone can swing outside of optimal and still accomplish great things. Hopefully THIS is what Project 1.68 is for.

 

[wulsy]

BMan -

Do we wall have our own "golf swing DNA" that we can barely alter? There are so many different swings that produce good results and this thread shows that different swings work for different people. It seems like our brains/body are all wired differently for a golf swing.

My swing is almost the same as it was when I started playing 26 years ago. I know more about my swing now then ever, however, under pressure, my swing is still basically the same. So many people look to change their swing without realizing the proper cause/effect of a golf shot with the new ball flight laws.

Just my 2 eurocents. I think that we do have a golf swing "DNA", which relates to our actual DNA. My brother and father both swing similar to me and my son has these traits also. This is by no means proof, but a lot of big ideas arose out of such observations. I used to want to change my swing traits to tie it into some of the the things I liked about other swings but now I wouldn't EXchange my swing for another, whether it be Dustin, Tiger, Paul, Gmac or someone else for the simple reason it would NEVER work for ME.

You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your DNA!

 

[cwdlaw223]

My father and I both have similar swings and he keeps looking for the next golf tip to improve his game. I've finally have him thinking in terms of the D-plane for cause/effect instead of trying to change his inherent swing with some new wrinkle. My brother doesn't swing anything like my father and me (he got the bad DNA!!!).

Tiger is the one guy that seems to be able to change his swing all around and still play at a high level. I wonder how different Jack's swing looks today from 20 years ago?

 

[ej20]

My father and I both have similar swings and he keeps looking for the next golf tip to improve his game. I've finally have him thinking in terms of the D-plane for cause/effect instead of trying to change his inherent swing with some new wrinkle. My brother doesn't swing anything like my father and me (he got the bad DNA!!!).

Tiger is the one guy that seems to be able to change his swing all around and still play at a high level. He's just different from everyone else.

Tiger is indeed mind boggling.Who else in history of any note that has changed his swing completely four times in just over a decade?

I will venture out on a limb and say that Jack Nicklaus would have less than 10 majors if he rebuilt his swing as many times as Tiger.He didn't and has 18.If Tiger kept his 2000 swing,he would have 24 by now.

 

[Scott Fossum]

I would like to add that Trevino, Snead, Bubba, and Daly were largely self-taught. This is what I know of the others;

O'Grady- largely self-taught, lots of attempts at Q-School, lots of research on his own
Toms- mostly coached (obviously Brian knows exact details)
Nicklaus- Early, consistent coaching under Jack Grout
Els- early on self-taught, hitting wiffle balls in his yard with his Mom's clubs, later coaching from Leadbetter
Hal Suttton - early on self-taught by playing 54-72 holes a day, later on Jimmy Ballard
Appleby- coaching from Austrailan Sports Institute

Would it be fair to say that a lot of these swings were self-taught and just figured out how to control the ball on their own? Does teaching a certain method restrain young players from a "natural" athletic type-swing?

 

[rogerdodger]

Nicklaus changed his swing thru the years, just not to the extent Tiger has. In 1979, he noticed he had lost distance and ball-striking was not as strong. Jack Grout, with whom he worked before the golf season started in January, suggested a more inside hand path on the backswing, more around in the plane, although still well above the right shoulder, and a feeling of releasing the clubhead more. Result, US Open and PGA in 1980. In 1986, Grout told him he had gotten too around with little extension and had him "reach for the sky" like he did when younger. Result, Masters in 1986. If you look at the swings from these years they do not look all that different. His thoughts were different as were his feels. Tiger has had his swing plane changed significantly. While it is easy to say that the upright swing with strong lower body pivot in both directions is suited better for the driver, it does not explain why Johnny Miller, from 1973-1975 was the most accurate iron player in the world. With a similar swing, at age 60, Watson almost won the British Open. It is incredible that with all the teaching out there on the web, Brian is the only teacher admitting that this swing model is not only orthodox, but pretty darn effective since so many major winners have had similar motions. 2011: swing like Johnny 74.

 

[wulsy]

I disagree. Tiger swing is in terms of the "DNA" factor still totally recognisable as Tiger's swing. But his changes have moved him far enough away from his DNA, that even a guy with his talent has looked like a single figure handicaper on a bad day. I suppose this is the art of teaching - knowing what you can and can't do with a player. I think if Jack had been on tour today he would have rejected swing changes which didn't work for him and would have "kept" his swing. Jack was a much stronger guy physically and mentally than Tiger.

What are then the DNA factors: acceleration profiles couple with anatomically dependent mechanical movements?

 

[ej20]

Nicklaus changed his swing thru the years, just not to the extent Tiger has. In 1979, he noticed he had lost distance and ball-striking was not as strong. Jack Grout, with whom he worked before the golf season started in January, suggested a more inside hand path on the backswing, more around in the plane, although still well above the right shoulder, and a feeling of releasing the clubhead more. Result, US Open and PGA in 1980. In 1986, Grout told him he had gotten too around with little extension and had him "reach for the sky" like he did when younger. Result, Masters in 1986. If you look at the swings from these years they do not look all that different. His thoughts were different as were his feels. Tiger has had his swing plane changed significantly. While it is easy to say that the upright swing with strong lower body pivot in both directions is suited better for the driver, it does not explain why Johnny Miller, from 1973-1975 was the most accurate iron player in the world. With a similar swing, at age 60, Watson almost won the British Open. It is incredible that with all the teaching out there on the web, Brian is the only teacher admitting that this swing model is not only orthodox, but pretty darn effective since so many major winners have had similar motions. 2011: swing like Johnny 74.

Everyone tweaks and works on their swings,not just Nickalus.

But Tiger's 2008 Haney swing is unrecognisable to his 2000 swing.I doubt you will find even one HOF player that has played succesfully with so many vastly different swings.

 

[TaylorMadeAP25]

Don't know if I agree. If you say copy Bubba/Jack or copy Charlie Wie, I think most 20+ cappers would have a hard time getting it airborn with Charlie's swing.

Really? They wont be able to get it airborn? Please Explain

 

[wulsy]

Everyone tweaks and works on their swings,not just Nickalus.

But Tiger's 2008 Haney swing is unrecognisable to his 2000 swing.I doubt you will find even one HOF player that has played succesfully with so many vastly different swings.

He has changed a lot, for sure. Sign of the times IMO: The Rise and Rise of the Sports Coach.