Over the top

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Burner,

You couldn't be more wrong.

PLENTY of golfers swing too far to the right, JUST BECAUSE the face gets CLOSED by separation.

Those golfers—who are hitting TOO MUCH OF THE INSIDE AFT QUADRANT—have no idea about what part of the ball to hit either.

:cool:
 
S

smatts

New
Well I used to be a slicer, and when I discovered that my clubface was open throughout the entire swing, I fixed that and havent sliced since. I had a cupped left wrist because I tried to copy Sergio's swing, but he has a strong grip while I use a neutral grip.

So ya once my face was fixed everything fell into place.
 
S

Spike

New
flapro said:
Interested in opinions of what causes over the top and drills to stop it.
Click to expand...

The original question above I think was pretty straight forward. The answers given could very well be true, ie., ignorance, a perception that the back of the ball should be hit in a direct line to the target, or a grip problem.

What about how you start the swing.... spinning out of a shot, or, too much right hand to start the swing? There seems to be many reasons why OTT can take place, so I don't see how anyone of these answer could be wrong.

Fix the clubface? Ok, then what? Fix the clubpath? Fix their perception? Give them drills to do for all the above? So, how could anyone be more wrong when there are a billion ways to use the club?

Does fixing the clubface automatically make the player understand what they are supposed to do with it?

We've all seen players who have shut the clubface in the backswing (more often than not) and then come over the top and try to reroute the path in order to square the face at impact. So how could the open clubface be the 95% of the problem?

Not trying to be antagonistic here, just some of the thoughts that came to mind when reading this thread.
 
D

diggerdog

New
Fla pro,

There was a time when I was in a hurry as you are
I was like you
There was a day when I just had to tell my point of view
I was like you
Now I don't mean to make you frown
No, I just want you to slow down

Have you never been mellow?
Have you never tried to find a comfort from inside you?
Have you never been happy just to hear your song?
Have you never let someone else be strong?

Running around as you do with your head up in the clouds
I was like you
Never had time to lay back, kick your shoes off, close your eyes
I was like you
Now you're not hard to understand
You need someone to hold your hand

Have you never been mellow?
Have you never tried to find a comfort from inside you?
Have you never been happy just to hear your song?
Have you never let someone else be strong?
 
c21heel

c21heel

New
The original post was a valid question from someone who would like to fix on an over-the-top move. Unfortunately, the "ignorance" remark in the first reply really wasn't a very polite handshake for someone somewhat new to the forum. Doesn't happen a lot on this board that I can recall, but it does happen at times and can be a turn off for someone new to the board in search of help.

I would suggest that if you can't add some substance or constructive advise to your replies, then save some internet space.
 
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J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Spike said:
The original question above I think was pretty straight forward. The answers given could very well be true, ie., ignorance, a perception that the back of the ball should be hit in a direct line to the target, or a grip problem.

What about how you start the swing.... spinning out of a shot, or, too much right hand to start the swing? There seems to be many reasons why OTT can take place, so I don't see how anyone of these answer could be wrong.

Fix the clubface? Ok, then what? Fix the clubpath? Fix their perception? Give them drills to do for all the above? So, how could anyone be more wrong when there are a billion ways to use the club?

Does fixing the clubface automatically make the player understand what they are supposed to do with it?

We've all seen players who have shut the clubface in the backswing (more often than not) and then come over the top and try to reroute the path in order to square the face at impact. So how could the open clubface be the 95% of the problem?

Not trying to be antagonistic here, just some of the thoughts that came to mind when reading this thread.
Click to expand...

the fact of the matter is this, after 20+ years of teaching Brian has RARELY seen any people who have constant over the top problems with CLOSED CLUBFACES. Do they exist? Sure, but what percentage of golfers do they make up? Maybe 1 in a 100. And i'm not talking about slicers who end up flipping at the ball and END UP with a closed face. I'm talking about true closed face players at impact. I'm a young pup at this teaching game (going on 2.5 years) and i have NEVER had 1 student who comes OTT with a closed clubface issue and all my time at the range looking at people i haven't seen it either.

It just isn't that common. Just like slicers who have open clubface issues who try to swing too far LEFT (to play their slice) and come over the top, hookers who have too closed of a clubface try to swing too far RIGHT (to play their hook) and come underplane.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
I bet I can find someone who's more "ignorant" (as defined by Burner earlier) than self-mastery, but who can also hit it straighter, longer, more consistently, and score lower than him.
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

New
tongzilla said:
I bet I can find someone who's more "ignorant" (as defined by Burner earlier) than self-mastery, but who can also hit it straighter, longer, more consistently, and score lower than him.
Click to expand...

I get beat by ignorant "naturals" every other week. For the vast majority of golfers the game is a mystery. Golf is quite daunting for the uninitiated.
 
P

puttmad

New
Spike said:
The original question above I think was pretty straight forward. The answers given could very well be true, ie., ignorance, a perception that the back of the ball should be hit in a direct line to the target, or a grip problem.

What about how you start the swing.... spinning out of a shot, or, too much right hand to start the swing? There seems to be many reasons why OTT can take place, so I don't see how anyone of these answer could be wrong.

Fix the clubface? Ok, then what? Fix the clubpath? Fix their perception? Give them drills to do for all the above? So, how could anyone be more wrong when there are a billion ways to use the club?

Does fixing the clubface automatically make the player understand what they are supposed to do with it?

We've all seen players who have shut the clubface in the backswing (more often than not) and then come over the top and try to reroute the path in order to square the face at impact. So how could the open clubface be the 95% of the problem?

Not trying to be antagonistic here, just some of the thoughts that came to mind when reading this thread.
Click to expand...



Spike,
If you gave a non-golfer a club and asked them to hit the ball, 99 times out of 100 the ball would start straight (or right of the target line) and then slice to the right..

On the next shot, that person would not have catalogued the bend in the first shot, but simply registered that the ball had ended up way right of where they intended...
Therefore, on subsequent shots their SUBCONCIOUS intention would be for the ball to end up more to the left of the original shot. Therefore this (wrongly assimilated) SUBCONCIOUS reaction would influence the swing path on subsequent shots and the swing would develop the classic over-the-top, out-to-in movement, in an attempt to get the ball more ("left") on the target.......
From there they are lost....

However, if you then changed that person's grip/adjusted the clubface, and with their new over the top move they started pulling the ball straight left, their brain would register automatically that they had to swing "more right"....
 
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c21heel

c21heel

New
Jim, very well said. You may be young, but you are doing a great job on this site. I have often said that experience and age can make someone appear very smart. But in your case, I would say that effort, intelligence, and determination has made you a very bright teacher a very young age. Keep it up!
 
S

Spike

New
Jim and Puttmad,

I got your's and Brian's point. Please don't get me wrong but I hate the expression 99 times out of 100 kinda thing.

You can't imagine how many super strong grips there are in Thailand and how many closed clubfaces at the top. Now, in the beginning these guys either top the ball or hit it left until they figure out they have to slide their hips 18 feet forward just to block it straight.

So, again I ask, "Does fixing the clubface automatically make the player understand what to do with it?"

I think not, but it is a damned good beginning......99 times out of 100.
 
P

puttmad

New
Spike said:
Jim and Puttmad,

I got your's and Brian's point. Please don't get me wrong but I hate the expression 99 times out of 100 kinda thing.

You can't imagine how many super strong grips there are in Thailand and how many closed clubfaces at the top. Now, in the beginning these guys either top the ball or hit it left until they figure out they have to slide their hips 18 feet forward just to block it straight.

So, again I ask, "Does fixing the clubface automatically make the player understand what to do with it?"

I think not, but it is a damned good beginning......99 times out of 100.
Click to expand...

Looks like you just answered your own question then...:D
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
flapro....

If you take a slicer......and make them do the TwistAway properly and then go to wedding ring up properly......

What are the chances that they will slice OR come over the top?

Have you actively fixed the plane? (i.e. by telling them something specifically about the plane)

....

BTW I thought the "ignorance" comment was funny........IMO not that big a deal.....
 
Burner

Burner

New
Brian Manzella said:
Burner,

You couldn't be more wrong.

PLENTY of golfers swing too far to the right, JUST BECAUSE the face gets CLOSED by separation.

Those golfers—who are hitting TOO MUCH OF THE INSIDE AFT QUADRANT—have no idea about what part of the ball to hit either.

:cool:
Click to expand...
Brian,

I hear what you are saying but I still contend that the first principle is to hammer home the necessity for an on plane swing path together with an appreciation of dynamics of the golf swing. This should be done before any involvement with the ball is entertained.

The idea of hitting the ball forward, irrespective of which orientation of the club face, or tilt of the axis, is involved is at the very core of this fundamental error.

Correcting club face orientation and axis tilt will, IMHO, remain futile until an on plane, down and out swing path to, and through, low point has been mastered.

Only when that has been achieved should the destination of the ball and the means of getting it there be addressed.
 
H

hcw

New
can't quite stay away....

flapro said:
Yesterday, 04:38 PM
There is really no place for elitists like the majority of "kool aid" drinkers who frequent and monopolize this forum. Dare to disagree or dare to ask their opinions and what you get is sarcasm, condescension and ridicule.
No need to post anything more in response because I won't re-visit to read your garbage.
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flapro
Junior Member

Last Activity: Today 05:14 PM

...just couldn't resist comig back for a little fix, eh!?
 
B

Boris

New
Ringer said:
It is way way way easier to fix the grip and watch the swing change than to try to fix the swing so that the grip changes.

Try this with any person. Don't tell them what you're looking for or they'll change what they do.

Have them swing 5 times with a strong grip
Have them swing 5 times with a weak grip

Now watch the path they take with the club during the takeaway.

That observation should change your mind real fast about this issue.
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Yawn!

Boris
 
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