Over the top

[Bill Miracle]

Come on boyz...

This has the makin's of a great thread. Lots of good info already in here....Let's get it back to the subject. I have a lot of interest in this playing out with more great info before burning out in the snide.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

I hear what you are saying but I still contend that the first principle is to hammer home the necessity for an on plane swing path together with an appreciation of dynamics of the golf swing. This should be done before any involvement with the ball is entertained.

This is because you were SOLD on this idea.

Come watch me teach for a week, and you'll never say that again.

 

[bts]

It's your mind.

Interested in opinions of what causes over the top and drills to stop it.

Seriously, don't you want to "hit it straight, high and far"? If so, that's it.

It won't stop until the mind stopping wanting to do that or wanting to do something else, which could be just the opposite.

 

[Spike]

In my mind, and I know that can be scary, but it seems to me the simple answer to OTT is that OUT in happening before DOWN.

So what is the big deal?

Why don't teachers and people deal with this idea of DOWN???

 

[Burner]

In my mind, and I know that can be scary, but it seems to me the simple answer to OTT is that OUT in happening before DOWN.

And that is the sole cause of the OTT fault.

People swinging out and forwards, with down being completely incidental save for the necessity of making contact with the ball, is ruinous in itself.

Fixing the club face and adding axis tilt will not, of themselves, change this most basic of golfing faults one iota.

 

[Burner]

This is because you were SOLD on this idea.

Come watch me teach for a week, and you'll never say that again.

Love to BM and who knows....................?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Following Brian's advice, I've seen quite significant improvements in a lot of my students' downswing swing plane with simply getting them to flatten instead of cup the left wrist on the backswing. For some even quite dramatic changes in a space of literally minutes. What is maybe more important is that I can't remember anyone getting worse for having a flat left wrist.

If I knew how to do it, I would post some before and after shots of the changes. The flattening of the left wrist improves the right elbow alignment, putting it more under the right hand and the elbow as a result tends not to separate as much from the ribs. The hands are then slightly lower and students start the downswing from a different spot, shaft often now below the right shoulder rather than in the middle of the neck or cutting across the right cheek from the down the line perspective.

Does it sort everybody out straightaway? No but it is certainly a step in the right direction. Some seem compulsive over accelerators and rely too heavily on their hands to propel the club back to the ball.

Tackling the swing path appears in my experience to be less effective because it does not attack the root cause of the problem.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Following Brian's advice, I've seen quite significant improvements in a lot of my students' downswing swing plane with simply getting them to flatten instead of cup the left wrist on the backswing. For some even quite dramatic changes in a space of literally minutes. What is maybe more important is that I can't remember anyone getting worse for having a flat left wrist.

If I knew how to do it, I would post some before and after shots of the changes. The flattening of the left wrist improves the right elbow alignment, putting it more under the right hand and the elbow as a result tends not to separate as much from the ribs. The hands are then slightly lower and students start the downswing from a different spot, shaft often now below the right shoulder rather than in the middle of the neck or cutting across the right cheek from the down the line perspective.

Does it sort everybody out straightaway? No but it is certainly a step in the right direction. Some seem compulsive over accelerators and rely too heavily on their hands to propel the club back to the ball.

Tackling the swing path appears in my experience to be less effective because it does not attack the root cause of the problem.

THANK GOD, someone "outside our circle" backsup you can fix more over the top players with closing the damn face than BY ANY OTHER WAY.

We are not saying other ways may not work, because they do just NOT IN HIGH %s. If i had a hat, and there were 10 ways to fix the over the top move, the first thing i'd pull out is to fix the face and work from there.

 

[puttmad]

Is it just me, or is there a conflict of information here?...

OK so you "fix" the clubface...how?
Considering..
Most amateurs have a tendency to grip "strong"
Most Amateurs aim the clubface at the target (or that is there intention)...
With the above setup they still come over the top, with a too open clubface..

Now in addition, we know
At impact the clubface should be about 1.8* open and close to square by separation..

Now from what I have read here previously, you recommend:
A neutral grip (i.e. weakening most players strongish grips)
Mid body hands, which makes the clubface closed at address...

Now jack Nicklaus said the other day, "I have never seen any good player who sets up with the club facing directly at the target." This was during a discussion concerning the fact that most good players set up with the face open at address...

So you set up with the face slightly open...but hang on, what about mid-body hands, so the club should look closed, plus weaker grip which will leave the club more open.....
How complicated are we trying to make this game...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

No, the rest of you are making this complicated. You don't HAVE to have a neutral grip however we like to teach it to slicers because you can fix more slicers with a neutral grip than you can with a strong grip because they need to learn clubface control. But that doesn't mean i couldn't take a strong gripped player who has a too bent left wrist for his grip and still comes over the top and plays a pull cut.

I'd just have him bend it a whole lot less.

 

[puttmad]

....

Now jack Nicklaus said the other day, "I have never seen any good player who sets up with the club facing directly at the target." This was during a discussion concerning the fact that most good players set up with the face open at address...

So you set up with the face slightly open...but hang on, what about mid-body hands, so the club should look closed, plus weaker grip which will leave the club more open.....

Sorry Jim, you didn't quite say how we resolve the above contradiction...

 

[Spike]

I think I hear ya, Puttmad......concerning the address postion of mid body alignment.....

Mid body address does not have the clubface closed.

However, those who at address have the shaft leaning forward with a strong grip.....and then bring the hands backward to mid body alignment will definately have a closed clubface.

And, that is a real eye opener for a lot of folks......when they get it.

 

[Leek]

There is a moral to the story contained in this thread.

Posts here are a reflection on Brian. When a visitor posts a question, I think Brian, Jim or Tom should give the response. I hope everyone agrees that the last thing any members should want is to make Brian look bad.

 

[puttmad]

....

I think I hear ya, Puttmad......concerning the address postion of mid body alignment.....

Mid body address does not have the clubface closed.

Appreciate your input Spike, but a few weeks ago it was stated categorically by Jim that the face would appear closed at address with mid-body hands...

If I address the ball, hands mid-body first and then take Jack's advice that the clubface should be slightly open at address, doesn't that make the club WAY open at impact and separation?....
Understand my dilemma?...open or closed?...

Or:
Do I address the ball hands forward first, with the face open, then adjust everythingback to mid-body and allow the face to close when the left wrist cups at address?...

 

[swingobsessed]

Or:
Do I address the ball hands forward first, with the face open, then adjust everythingback to mid-body and allow the face to close when the left wrist cups at address?...[/QUOTE]

I posted this question in another thread, but there were no responses:


I would like to know the differences in the swing caused by setting up with impact hands as opposed to mid-body hands. How can I decide which is better for me? What are the pros and cons of each?

This is similar to another question I had about aiming the face for a fade or draw without changing the grip. If you manipulate your hands or face alignment WITHOUT changing the grip, won't a good golfer just end up in the same back swing position and thus the same impact position regardless of how you force the hands to look at address?

 

[golfie]

Impact hands

Or:
Do I address the ball hands forward first, with the face open, then adjust everythingback to mid-body and allow the face to close when the left wrist cups at address?...[/QUOTE]

Take your grip at impact fix (impact hand location) then move back to mid body hands.

 

[golfer24]

I have a friend who does have an extremely shut club face who swings way OTT. It may be that 1 in 100 but how the hell do you fix his OTT.

 

[swingobsessed]

Or:
Do I address the ball hands forward first, with the face open, then adjust everythingback to mid-body and allow the face to close when the left wrist cups at address?...

Take your grip at impact fix (impact hand location) then move back to mid body hands.[/QUOTE]

Assuming I follow this procedure, what would be the difference between starting my swing from an impact hands or mid body hands position? What would be the differences in the result?

 

[birdie_man]

I think the idea is......

Slicer + "Let's just strengthen your grip and you'll be fine" = band-aid.

He's still rollin it open too much.....(even if you try to get him to take it up the plane)....

Just fix the way they control the clubface........to the point where they HAVE to do some good things to fight the hook. (like hitting the inside-back of the ball with AXIS TILT....instead of the exact opposite to try to fight the SLICE/open clubface)

I'm open to new ideas and surely there are other ways (whether they are as effective or not is another thing) but this is simple enough I think that really anyone (and especially a golf teacher) should be able to see some merit.

"Find the problem (root cause) and kill it DEAD" as Brian has said.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jack liked to play his fade so he opened the face at address end of story, darren clarke plays most shots with a semi shut face because he likes to play a draw.

it doesn't matter, you are all making this way too complicated. This thread is/was about how to fix people with OTT moves, we have provided the best way how and what fixes the highest % of people. If you have other questions based on hand positions, how to setup the club at address post different threads on it.