Brian Manzella
Administrator
Lot's of player TALK body...but they FEEL hands.
If you can already shoot as good as Michael Jordan, youcan SAY you don't think about your hands
Pivot Controlled Hands and Body "release"??
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Lot's of player TALK body...but they FEEL hands.
If you can already shoot as good as Michael Jordan, youcan SAY you don't think about your hands
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I swear I re-read this ^^^ above comment three times and STILL do know what you are saying.
The PIVOT is always ahead of the hands on the downstroke, though...and this DOES NOT mean PIVOT CONTROLLED HANDS.
What I was trying to say is that although your pivot is working for you it is not a pivot controled swing. Many misunderstand the hands controled pivot as a kinda of a Jim Flick swing of the arms thing.
One other point to MJ - How can you say that Homer gives his blessing to a pivot controled swing when the entire book is devoted to a hand controled swing and one small paragraph talks about pivot control?
One other point to MJ - How can you say that Homer gives his blessing to a pivot controled swing when the entire book is devoted to a hand controled swing and one small paragraph talks about pivot control?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
njmp2,
Gotcha.
You are Soooooooooooooo right.
Homer wrote a HAND CONTROLLED PIVOT book with a pivot controlled hands reference!
Gotcha.
You are Soooooooooooooo right.
Homer wrote a HAND CONTROLLED PIVOT book with a pivot controlled hands reference!
EaglesNest
New
You suggest putting the cart before the horse then. I think you have got this all backwards. How do the hands produce speed for the arms and shoulders they are further down the chain.
The intention of what you want to do with the hands controls the pivot and the pivot pulls the shoulders,arms and hands which hang onto the club.
EaglesNest
New
Oh yes it can if aimed in the right direction.
EaglesNest
New
PART ONE: The hands don't create speed for the arms. The shoulders, then arms, then hands and wrists create speed for the club. It all works down the line. The pivot which is the workhorse in all of this contributes some speed to the club but not nearly as much as the arms and hands.
PART TWO: I don't understand the second paragraph. Ben Doyle taught what Homer wrote: Body ahead of Hands ahead of Club and it is still Hands CONTROLLED pivot because the hands are the thought processing center (smart and passive) not the labor force (powerful and active). The body goes where the hands allow them to go.
Of course, the pivot is trained by itself without the hands.
The hands actually are going wild with a pivot centered swing. Eaglenest said his pivot was going wild after aiming it.
I beleive in a very strong powerful pivot but only controlled by educated hands. As Ben teaches, the mind is in the hands, the application of power is in the pivot.
Brian nailed it when he said, Lot's of player TALK body...but they FEEL hands.
Happy 4th, the keg is tapped
EaglesNest
New
You just confirmed the above but claim you don't understand it.[?]
That was your first quote.
And that was your second.
You seem to be changing tack.
I don't understand how you can determine that the body leads the way yet is not pulling on the levers, if it leads it can't be pushing.[?]
I think Brian's frisbee throw demo explains it quite well along with his quoted text.
Eagle what the heck are you asking? I did not understand your second paragraph but took a shot at it, so forgive me if I can not follow what ever it is you are arguing. I don't want to get into a c0ck fight over this. I learned what I know from several of the best TGM teachers around - I'll stick with them.
If you think using a powerful pivot that pulls is pivot control - then for you so be it. Brian's frisbee throw is still a hand controlled pivot. You are mistaking a power application, the strong pivot, for pivot control over the hands, it isn't. Number four power accumulator, that’s the arm releasing off the chest, is NOT a pivot controlled indicator.
It is also not a speed producer that is greater then what the shoulders to arms to wrists/hands contribute to the swing.
If you think using a powerful pivot that pulls is pivot control - then for you so be it. Brian's frisbee throw is still a hand controlled pivot. You are mistaking a power application, the strong pivot, for pivot control over the hands, it isn't. Number four power accumulator, that’s the arm releasing off the chest, is NOT a pivot controlled indicator.
It is also not a speed producer that is greater then what the shoulders to arms to wrists/hands contribute to the swing.
EaglesNest
New
No c0ck fight,no arguing just discussion.
I'm just confused by your contradictory statements.
Homer Kelly said,
This is great "theory" discussion...
What I take from the discussion so far is that:
Homer teaches hands controlled pivot (Great)
Some of you believe that pivot controlled hands is inferior because (Homer teaches something else, to which I do not care...if it works it works, its about the score)
Some of you believe pivot controlled hands leads to wild shots (I have gained MORE control over my ball flight using this procedure, AND, I do not see how it could lead to wild shots...When ball position is correct, its a thing of beauty)
Some of you believe that you do not get good distance....Thats simply NOT true. This procedure is the ultimate in lag and compression...I really compress the s_it out of the ball...better than I ever have...what can be wrong about that?
I hit the ball much more on line, and I can draw and fade it....
As Brian has alluded to, it does not lead to back problems..(no reverse C, etc...its simply rotation which is NOT intrusive to the back)
So, beyond the theory stuff, and the fact that Homer doesnt teach it, this discussion has not</u> convinced me that its inferior, especially for short irons (nor do I believe you have convinced yourselves...Its just regergatate the book with no other basis of thought or proof...in my line of work, that "logic" does not hold water)
I guess I am one who is willing to do something that Homer does not go out of his way to teach (by the way, how in the h_ll do YOU KNOW that Homer is 1)right about EVERYTHING, and 2) Provides the only way to strike the ball well. You guys have only convinced me that the Book teaches something else, and it does not say that this procedure is ineffective</u>.....Travino, Sutton, Azinger, Duval, Pohl, Quiqely, etc.
What I take from the discussion so far is that:
Homer teaches hands controlled pivot (Great)
Some of you believe that pivot controlled hands is inferior because (Homer teaches something else, to which I do not care...if it works it works, its about the score)
Some of you believe pivot controlled hands leads to wild shots (I have gained MORE control over my ball flight using this procedure, AND, I do not see how it could lead to wild shots...When ball position is correct, its a thing of beauty)
Some of you believe that you do not get good distance....Thats simply NOT true. This procedure is the ultimate in lag and compression...I really compress the s_it out of the ball...better than I ever have...what can be wrong about that?
I hit the ball much more on line, and I can draw and fade it....
As Brian has alluded to, it does not lead to back problems..(no reverse C, etc...its simply rotation which is NOT intrusive to the back)
So, beyond the theory stuff, and the fact that Homer doesnt teach it, this discussion has not</u> convinced me that its inferior, especially for short irons (nor do I believe you have convinced yourselves...Its just regergatate the book with no other basis of thought or proof...in my line of work, that "logic" does not hold water)
I guess I am one who is willing to do something that Homer does not go out of his way to teach (by the way, how in the h_ll do YOU KNOW that Homer is 1)right about EVERYTHING, and 2) Provides the only way to strike the ball well
. You guys have only convinced me that the Book teaches something else, and it does not say that this procedure is ineffective</u>.....Travino, Sutton, Azinger, Duval, Pohl, Quiqely, etc.Brian Manzella
Administrator
No way of knowing if any of the above mentioned did it either way.
Back in my pre-Ben, barely Golfing Machine days, I taught SOME people this. I read it as an OPTION in the book.
The students all did very well.......hmmm.....
Back in my pre-Ben, barely Golfing Machine days, I taught SOME people this. I read it as an OPTION in the book.
The students all did very well.......hmmm.....
Brian,
Sutton has described his method on TV - no hands/arms - a pure body swing. Azinger is John Redman's showcase student - Redman teaches a body swing with arms/hands controlled by the pivot.
BUT, the important thing is that you have verified that a 'pivot controlled hands' stroke IS an option, which Homer included in the book. He just doesn't PREFER it. Thanks for seconding what some of us are saying here - it's a valid CHOICE.
Sutton has described his method on TV - no hands/arms - a pure body swing. Azinger is John Redman's showcase student - Redman teaches a body swing with arms/hands controlled by the pivot.
BUT, the important thing is that you have verified that a 'pivot controlled hands' stroke IS an option, which Homer included in the book. He just doesn't PREFER it. Thanks for seconding what some of us are saying here - it's a valid CHOICE.
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