Please tear apart my swing

[mrmoonysnothere]

Have no mercy and tell me what you think. I generally play a straight ball to slight draw and my usual misses are a slight hook or a push fade. If I'm going to hit it OB, it's generally to the right. I'm playing to about a 2 handicap, but I'm probably the most inconsistent 2 on the planet and last year I shot anywhere from 67 to 89 in tournaments.

Thanks!!!

http://rapidshare.com/files/15729980/Ryan_DL_Driver_2_Feb8.avi.html

 

[golfbulldog]

Hi - take all of this as discussion rather than instruction... unlike you i have never shot a 67! At least not for 18 holes

Your OB right shot means that the clubface must be open at impact-seperation and your plane line closed to the desired target ( ie. an in-to-out swing not just impact)

To hit your standard draw you must do something during your standard swings to close that clubface... options are to use strong grip, flip, or pivot correctly... and others i guess? Your right wrist looks fairly bent coming into impact so no gross flip so it is probably grip and pivot.

Your left wrist looks flat at the top and the face of club is pointing skywards - i think that your grip may be stronger than "Manzella Neutral". Nothing wrong as long as other components fit but it looks like you have "finish swivel issues!"... left elbow looks a bit chicken wing-like? It looks like you are fighting a natural swivel into finish position for fear of hitting left.

Also your right shoulder does not go down plane into and beyond impact...

Lots of info but little advice so far ... thats why i am not a teacher! Maybe get the grip more neutral start hitting slices / push fades again... then learn to square the clubface with better pivot ( right shoulder downplane) and better finish swivel... Try a bit of "impact fix" to find out how far down your right shoulder should be at impact.

Wait and see what the big boys say.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Where is the file?

 

[mrmoonysnothere]

Where is the file?

Brian,
When you click on the link, scroll to the bottom and click the "free" button. The next page takes you to the download page.

http://rapidshare.com/files/15729980/Ryan_DL_Driver_2_Feb8.avi.html


golfbulldog,
Thanks for the information. I think we're pretty much on the same page.

unlike you i have never shot a 67! At least not for 18 holes

Trust me, it's not because of my ballstriking. Don't get me wrong, I can hit it pretty far and it's pretty solid, but I've shot those scores because I can chip and putt like a mo-fo. I'm also fortunate enough that I'm able to practice quite a bit, so I've learned to play with what I have, but if I'm going to take it to the next level and start really competing in tournaments, I need to tighten things up and lose the 2-3 loose shots per round that are killing my chances of scoring especially when the pressure is on. Once again, thanks for the info.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here ya go.

1. Nice Swing

2. You swing a bit too far to the right.

3. Your grip is a hair strong.

4. You don't open your hips and shoulders soon enough


I'd fix it in this order:

1. Towel Plane board, until you can do it.

2. Fix grip

Report back.

 

[mrmoonysnothere]

Thanks for the feedback, but could you explain the Towel Plane board?

With the season approaching very quickly, I've been working my butt off and I really appreciate the feedback.

 

[golfbulldog]

here is the link -

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7799

also check out "Building Blocks"

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7825

Do not be mislead by the fact that it is a beginners guide... it is pure TGM made understandable - it will get your grip perfect and show you the correct pivot action to get the club square and on-plane.

For that matter - get the "never Slice again - 2"

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7786

... it is 25 years of wisdom which although aimed at slicers it is ALL about clubface control, straight plane line and lagging clubhead pressure.... every word is "3 imperatives" stuff. Outstanding!!!!

Sound like a salesman! Actually just very satisfied customer. Thanks, Brian.

 

[mrmoonysnothere]

Thanks for the feedback and links. I used the towel plane board drill today and I was beating the hell out of that thing, so it goes without saying that I have some work to do.

 

[Mr Inconsistent]

Haha, you kind of remind me of me, the towel plane board is a good swing path reality check. On your backswing you tend to rock back on your heels and that leads you to get your shoulders too flat at the top, and that is going to make you come down too far inside causing blocks and hooks. I tend to do the same stuff. So get your weight a little more on the balls of your feet or at least the arches of your feet and bend a little more from the waist and then it will be a lot easier to get your path straight, or hit fades even.

 

[JeffM]

Are you guys not disturbed by the fact that he loses his spine angle at impact.

See - http://jeffmann.net/Moon.jpg

I thought that one should maintain the spine angle throughout the downswing, impact and early followthrough.

Also, it is my impression that the cause of the loss of spine angle is due to the fact that the shoulders turn before the hips. If you play the video frame-by-frame, there are a few single frame sequences just before impact where the shoulders have already turned but the hips are catching up, and as the hips rotate open in the last phase of the downswing they cause the lower spine to move and it seems to cause the loss of spine angle. I thought that the hips should turn first, and turn more than the shoulders and that the shoulders only catch up in the followthrough phase of the swing.

See - cross section of torso in the downswing showing the hips more open than the shoulders during each phase of the downswing.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/SLAP-hipsearlyDS.jpg

Jeff.

 

[golfbulldog]

Hi Jeff, your photos show perfectly the "loss of spine angle" you describe - a conventional golfing term but G.O.L.F. finds it more useful to use the same photos and see "Right shoulder not going downplane, plane line alignment problems etc."

Now i agree that there can be a subtle difference between a photo showing alignment and "a position" but the frame of reference to imperatives is probably the most useful and incredibly simple contribution that TGM has offered. The rest of the book is a catalogue and a physics text.

I would sell a cut down version of the TGM -volume 1( stripped to the 3 imperatives and text associated with them, simple explanation of loading action - hit or swing) and give volume 2 ( physics) and volume 3 ( catalogue) as free extras. Volume 2 and 3 would sit gathering dust somewhere but volume 1 would become an essential gift for all golfers at christmas - beats another golf ball washing device!

Charge $100 and nobody would feel ripped off!

The frame of reference in TGM is to the imperatives... no matter what shape the body gets into. There is, or used to be, a short video on here of Ben Doyle's face-on swing. Somebody non-TGM, on a more "equipment related website" , poo-pooed Ben's swing because of excess body movement, head movement etc... and said something like "... well if that is the TGM hero guy then what does he know!!" What he did not know was that Ben got his ageing body to do whatever it had to do ( whatever shape it took on) to achieve his 3 imperatives. That is the beauty of it!


You are correct that for most humans the correct imperatives will lead to "maintaining spine angle" and correct hip and shoulder positions... but the alignments and imperatives are so much more important . Get them first and then fine tune it.

 

[JeffM]

Golfbulldog

I have still not learnt about TGM principles, so I don't know how to analyse a golf swing that way (using TGM imperatives).

However, do you believe that TGM imperatives over-rule other basic golf fundamentals?

For example, Ben Hogan states that the golf downswing should start from the bottom-up, and he likens the golf swing to a side-throwing ball throwing action, or a boy skipping stones across a pond. Hogan states that the lower body should move first, and the upper body should follow.

Here is a photograph of Hogan demonstrating that point in a posed photographic sequence.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/GolfPerfect-FofH-elbowleading.jpg

Note that the hips are leading the shoulders in the downswing.

One can see the same thing in Hogan's actual swing.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Hogan-DScomposite.jpg

One can see that Hogan has already squared the hips while the shoulders are still very closed (held far back).

Now look at this swing sequence.

See - http://jeffmann.net/Moon2.jpg

Note that the shoulders start to outrace the hips and that the shoulders are getting to be slightly open, while the hips are still square. That's totally contrary to Hogan's "side-throw" swing principles as I understand it.

Is that not a problem?

By the way, I was thinking of buying the 7th edition of TGM for $34. Is that a different, incomplete version of TGM that you are offering to sell for $100?

Jeff.

 

[shortgamer]

I think Brian has said many times the goal is to get better without bastardizing what you already have. Work on the cause of some of these problems first. Small steps grasshopper

 

[puttmad]

Mr moony,

Just an observation....

Your head appears to be following your left shoulder on the downswing, rather than waiting for it to be collected by the right shoulder coming around.
It tends to make you come up out of the shot too early.

Now I know a couple of very good players that do this, Annika and Stenson, but for the average mortal this is where your push. push fade will come from as it subdues the natural rotation of the left arm..
The times you keep your head back you are probably getting your draws and hooks and when your head chases your left shoulder you will get the push/fades.
I would fix this first and then find out what you need to fix after that...

Did that shot go to the right BTW?....

 

[golfbulldog]

You'll come running for my $100 version soon enough



Hi Jeff,

No all that stuff is good stuff ... its all the physics of the swing and works well as it has for hundreds of years...

Physics will allow you to move the ball... just not always in the direction you intended... That is where TGM comes in ... alignments... but the "secret of golf"... clubhead lag is also about experiencing the physics in your hands.

You just don't hear the physics and alignments taught by other people on the whole.

If I were you I would buy the book- $34 is a bargain... and I am sure you will breakdown the knowledge rapidly... but when you see the text... imagine the people who want and need the knowledge but do not have your background in breakingdown complex material into digestable pieces. (I saw another post that made reference to you being medical - no? sorry if i got it wrong)

They would gladly pay $100 for the version i spoke of !! Or better still spend alot of time on this website learning from Brian and his staff... $100 would buy all of brian's videos i think!

PS. go on bombsquad golf / look at the swingfix section / check out the replies to stewart Bannatyne's swing sequences... I'm sure some of that advice is working but there is no common structure to their analysis... it is all position stuff...make it look like this pro or that pro... but no foundation! Get the book and within 2 months you will be cursing the lost years!

Golfbulldog

I have still not learnt about TGM principles, so I don't know how to analyse a golf swing that way (using TGM imperatives).

However, do you believe that TGM imperatives over-rule other basic golf fundamentals?

For example, Ben Hogan states that the golf downswing should start from the bottom-up, and he likens the golf swing to a side-throwing ball throwing action, or a boy skipping stones across a pond. Hogan states that the lower body should move first, and the upper body should follow.

Here is a photograph of Hogan demonstrating that point in a posed photographic sequence.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/GolfPerfect-FofH-elbowleading.jpg

Note that the hips are leading the shoulders in the downswing.

One can see the same thing in Hogan's actual swing.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Hogan-DScomposite.jpg

One can see that Hogan has already squared the hips while the shoulders are still very closed (held far back).

Now look at this swing sequence.

See - http://jeffmann.net/Moon2.jpg

Note that the shoulders start to outrace the hips and that the shoulders are getting to be slightly open, while the hips are still square. That's totally contrary to Hogan's "side-throw" swing principles as I understand it.

Is that not a problem?

By the way, I was thinking of buying the 7th edition of TGM for $34. Is that a different, incomplete version of TGM that you are offering to sell for $100?

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Golfbulldog

Thanks.

That's what I am trying to learn on this forum.

I am trying to learn another way of understanding the golf swing.

My present analysis of any person's golf swing is based on my previous teaching (Hogan's Five Lessons, Leadbetter, McLean, Swing Like a Pro book) and I want to understand where it may be deficient, and what alternative method there is of dissecting, and understanding, a golf swing.

Jeff.

 

[birdie_man]

However, do you believe that TGM imperatives over-rule other basic golf fundamentals?

I dunno what fundamentals you're talking about but....there's nothing radical about:

-having a flat left wrist
-having a lag pressure point "thru the ball"
-tracing a straight plane line

 

[Jared Willerson]

I agree Bird. The 3 imperatives are the golf swing everything else besides a correct grip just increases the sexiness factor and little else.

For instance, I got tied up for a long time trying to make sure my hands passed through the same "position" on the downstroke as they occupied at address (Johnny Miller's big "fundamental"). Tom Bartlett set me straight on that though and I have thought nothing about it since. Not worrying about stuff that doesn't really matter like the above example makes way for real improvement.

 

[dorndiggity]

Personally, I never like to see the hands get behind the heels at the top of the swing and that's needs to be fixed.

For comparison...

There's very few golfers (Jonathon Byrd, Lorena Ochoa) that have hands as deep as Mr. Moony and play at a high level because it's difficult to have the shoulders turn on a steep enough angle (tour average is 30-36° and you're at 15°), so get those hands over your feet which will make getting back down to the ball a much easier task.

 

[JeffM]

Birdie_man

The particular fundamentals that I had in mind was the sequence of body movements in the downswing (that the hips should lead the shoulders throughout the entire downswing if one is using a Hogan-style side-throwing downswing action)), and that the spine angle should remain constant throughout the downswing and early followthrough.

Jeff.