Please tear apart my swing

[golfbulldog]

There is a better line to draw....

Difficult to draw on not-quite-DTL views where you don't know the camera position but why not draw the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE LINE and work out where the hands and sweetspot are in relation to that line. Work out the plane angle that is functionally used by a player and then influences downswing options such as plane shifts, delivery path of hands, plane angle at impact.

Your photos show hands relative to shoulder and feet but not the ball... lines should be drawn to represent lines of loading , force and direction of lag being aimed or driven. That is how a player experiences their plane... through directing lag pressure... I think....?

They demonstrate a variety of interesting forearm positions which relate to loading actions... and the whole range of plane angles...

Mr Mooney is on plane angle at "end" not too unlike Ben Hogan...
but his DOWNSWING plane line is the main problem i think for him.

Personally, I never like to see the hands get behind the heels at the top of the swing and that's needs to be fixed.

For comparison...

 

[Ringer]

Boy Dorn.. this guy must really be bad..

 

[golfbulldog]

Boy Dorn.. this guy must really be bad..

But he was feeling the red line all the way into impact... or at least a straightish plane line... reality was more top arc, angled maybe but you get my point...

Mr Mooney's pp3 lag sensation gets lost on downswing somewhere ...

Is that right knee straightening??

 

[dorndiggity]

Boy Dorn.. this guy must really be bad..

Yes, we all know Hogan had deep hands at the top of the swing, but he also had a proper shoulder turn (roughly 30-35°) which MrMoony clearly doesn't have.

The combination of a very flat shoulder turn and very deep hands doesn't work very well which is why you won't find a professional that does it. The flattest shoulder turn that I've found with hands behind the feet is Lorena Ochoa at 25°. Now, I'm not saying that he can't play golf that way, but I am saying that the way he is swinging is far from ideal and it forces you to make some major compensations during the swing. Am I advocating that he bastardize his swing? Not at all. I think that his overall motion is pretty good, but he would be better served by getting his hands over his feet at the top of the swing which should steepen his shoulder turn and make his downswing much simpler.


MrMoony, do your divots typically start straight and curve substantially off to the left?

 

[mb6606]

look at this swing. Hands outside back foot. Just happened to win PB last week.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cYAzjlx8Y1s

 

[Mr Inconsistent]

Yeah, Moony has by far the flattest shoulders of all the pics. It all starts with him rocking back onto his heels early in the backswing. A draw and block recipe.

 

[Mr Inconsistent]

You know that's funny I was going to mention that the flatest guy I've seen on tour was Mickelson (he did start that ball left in that clip btw). But with Phil, remember he started winning majors when he went to the fade. And when he did that his shoulders became steeper. Either way, 99% of tour players have much steeper shoulders at the top than Moony, and his misses are blocks, obviously gettting steeper is a good idea.

 

[dorndiggity]

look at this swing. Hands outside back foot. Just happened to win PB last week.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE DEEP HANDS AT THE TOP OR A FLAT SWING.

I am saying that you CAN NOT have deep hands with an extremely flat shoulder turn. It's a BAD recipe.


Here's MrMoony, Hogan and Phil (reversed).

 

[mcflog]

Charles Warren

 

[JeffM]

Dorndiggity

Is it the combination of horizontal shoulder turn + hands behind the heels that is harmful as a combination, or is it the horizontal shoulder turn alone that is harmful? If the former, why is it harmful? What happens as a consequence of that combination?

Jeff.

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

Dorndiggity

Is it the combination of horizontal shoulder turn + hands behind the heels that is harmful as a combination, or is it the horizontal shoulder turn alone that is harmful? If the former, why is it harmful? What happens as a consequence of that combination?

Jeff.

I don't think we need to go over this topic anymore.


Yes the right leg was do just that!

 

[dorndiggity]

Is it the combination of horizontal shoulder turn + hands behind the heels that is harmful as a combination, or is it the horizontal shoulder turn alone that is harmful? If the former, why is it harmful? What happens as a consequence of that combination?

It's the combination because there needs to be some heigth dimension to the swing since we're playing a ball that's on the ground.

Do this...

Go stand beside a mirror so you're looking DOWN THE LINE and get into your NORMAL golf posture. Now without changing your posture, lift the club off the ground as though you are playing a ball that's on a foot long tee that's roughly knee height. From there, make a backswing. The position you would be in at the top of the swing would be one with an extremely flat shoulder turn and deep hands or the same position Mr Moony is getting into at the top of his swing. Effectively, he's made what amounts to be a baseball swing out of a golfer's posture. Now from that top of the swing position, make a downswing for a ball that on the ground and you'll see that it's extremely difficult without having some major swing compensations.

FWIW, I'm seeing more golfers with the same issues as MrMoony and a lot of it has to do with them trying to make the Jim Hardy "One Plane Swing". Hardy is 100% correct that if you're going to have a flatter swing w/ deep hands that you must have the steep shoulders in combination because it doesn't work without it. That's why I prefer to simply have the hands over the feet at the top of the swing. It's an easy position to achieve, most golfers can sense the correct position and it tends to facilitate the neccessary shoulder tilt.

Personally, I don't think most people understand how little the club moves in the depth direction of the swing and it's clear that Mr Moony (sorry, no offense) doesn't have the right concept. If you look at the butt of the club at address to the top of the swing in 99% of tour pros, you'll see that it moves less than a foot deep.

Here, you can see how deep Mr Moony's swing is in comparison to most pros.

 

[dorndiggity]

By the way, Mr Moony and I have corresponded several times today and I gave him some info and drills to work on. He didn't have his camera with him when he went to the range, but he said it was one of his best practice sessions in quite some time and he sent me some video of him swinging in his house. I have to admit that he made some pretty substantial changes in basically a day and has a solid concept of what he needs to improve on. If his home swing is any indication of what he did when actually hitting a ball, I'll be thoroughly impressed because it is looking fantastic. He said he'll post some video of his range session tomorrow, but here's a pic of his new and old top of the swing position.

New

Old

 

[JeffM]

Dorndiggity

Thanks for your explanation, and your great photos.

And what do you think of his propensity to have his shoulders outrace his hips in the downswing? Do you thank it is a major problem, and if not, why not?

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Not what I was trying to acomplish.

When I started to allow all of these swings to be posted on this forum, it was never my intention to turn this into what it has become.

But that is another topic...

As far as this particular golfer, who needs to swing more left and have the face more open at impact, and HIPS more open at impact, it was OBVIOUS that his backswing was WAY, WAY too flat. Dorn did a good job fixing this. So Mr. Mooney WILL hit it better from there.

But....

I was looking to use this swing to explain how a ROOT CAUSE can CAUSE this golfer (or another golfer with similar issues) to MAKE a backswing like this.

 

[puttmad]

....

I was looking to use this swing to explain how a ROOT CAUSE can CAUSE this golfer (or another golfer with similar issues) to MAKE a backswing like this.

Brian,
I had exactly this same problem (flat swing) about 3 years ago. I even went to see a very highly rated pro to sort it out (I didn't realise I was so flat until it was video'd)...
However, the pro never pointed out the flatness of my shoulders at the top, I had to figure that one all by myself.
The pro just kept trying to get me to "be at this position half way back" and "be at this position at the top"...etc...

What bugged me on hindsight was the CAUSE oif the problem was reacting to a guru's comment of, "TURN, don't TILT the shoulders on the backswing."
Instant flatswing.....

If only the teaching pro had simply stated, "Tilt your shoulders a bit more on the backswing" I could have solved the problem in 2 minutes (which I did once I realized what was really going on), I could have saved 2 years of ongoing lessons....DOH...

 

[azgolfer]

+1 on too flat. Notice the pros are looking down at the ball with their heads, whereas you really aren't. You are losing your "tush line". Try setting a chair against your butt and make sure it stays in contact during the swing, especially the downswing. Try to think of staying back on your left leg and looking sideways after the ball, with a sidearm throwing motion. Your motion would be more "submarine", due to your upright, flat posture. All this is stuff I've been working on. It takes a while to fix.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Isn't a flat shoulder turn on the backswing recommended? I try to bury my right shoulder as deep as I can on the backswing, that means my backswing shoulder turn should be relatively flat....no?

The steeper shoulder turn causes issues such as roundhousing for me.

 

[dodger]

What is root cause Brian? I also have issues with a too flat backswing, which morphs into a too flat downswing and hooks and pushes. These pictures looked familiar, however the hands in front of heels is hard to monitor. What do we fix first, shoulder plane or arm plane?

 

[puttmad]

...

What is root cause Brian? I also have issues with a too flat backswing, which morphs into a too flat downswing and hooks and pushes. These pictures looked familiar, however the hands in front of heels is hard to monitor. What do we fix first, shoulder plane or arm plane?

Shoulder....trust me..