Please tear apart my swing

[Ringer]

What is root cause Brian? I also have issues with a too flat backswing, which morphs into a too flat downswing and hooks and pushes. These pictures looked familiar, however the hands in front of heels is hard to monitor. What do we fix first, shoulder plane or arm plane?

Neither.

The first thing I would check is the setup.

The next is your intended direction of the club. Most people that get flat with their shoulders are attempting to lift the club on the backswing.

Or you could go the more technical route and say you're loosing your spine tilt. Make sure you aren't getting your weight back too much on your heels in the backswing. Voila.

 

[puttmad]

...

What is root cause Brian? I also have issues with a too flat backswing, which morphs into a too flat downswing and hooks and pushes. These pictures looked familiar, however the hands in front of heels is hard to monitor. What do we fix first, shoulder plane or arm plane?

Dodger,
I recently overcame this problem, by doing the following..

Instead of turning my shoulders on the backswing, for a couple of weeks I concentrated on the first action being to drop my left shoulder and THEN turn, getting my left shouder more UNDER my chin. This translates to a steeper shoulder angle at the top and thus the hands remain inside your heels.

I made a little pre-backswing drill drill to emphasise this, in that I took the club back to hands high just with this shoulder "dropping" action...
It was a deliberate over-exagerated move.

After a couple of weeks it ingrained and then I could forget about it. I no longer had a flat shoulder turn.....

 

[Brian Manzella]

Bad advice most of the time.

25 years of teaching, about 100 shoulder turns that had to be steepened.

That's out of TENS OF THOUSANDS of lessons and THOUSANDS of students.

That's why, really, my staff should be only people giving advice on this site.

Whew!

Well meaning, but, like fire.

 

[puttmad]

...

25 years of teaching, about 100 shoulder turns that had to be steepened.

That's out of TENS OF THOUSANDS of lessons and THOUSANDS of students.

That's why, really, my staff should be only people giving advice on this site.

Whew!

Well meaning, but, like fire.

So Mr Mooney didn't need to steepen his shoulders? Or me?.... Don't know what you are saying Brian....

That's 102 then.....

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Not sure why i didn't post before but he has the classic problem that i call

"too much around and not enough up."

All he needs to to is learn to bend that right arm much sooner in the backswing and he won't be so flat.

Also that picture that has the red line drawn from the ball to MrMooney's hands/shoulders IS BELOW THE TURNED SHOULDER PLANE. That red line should be drawn a bit higher and at a steeper angle and if that was done you'd clearly see he is below the TSP.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Don't know what you are saying Brian....

What I saying is this:

I don't like STEEP shoulder turns.

Most people don't need 'em.

Mooney MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF if I would have just been left along to do what I do, the WAY I do it.

His backswing is better.

Next.

 

[Ringer]

I dunno Brian. Looks to me he's just flat out standing up in his backswing. Doesn't seem he's going around too much.. just that he's not bending over to the ball anymore.

 

[Amen Corner]

.

Everybody seems to have opinions on whats wrong, too flat, loss of spine at impact and dit and dat. Here comes, for those who may have forgotten, Brians opinions on the vid.

1. Nice Swing

2. You swing a bit too far to the right.

3. Your grip is a hair strong.

4. You don't open your hips and shoulders soon enough

And How do Brian want to fix this...

I'd fix it in this order:

1. Towel Plane board, until you can do it.

2. Fix grip

Report back

Before you post back with comments like" sucker, gringo..." think of Brians signature.........and think of WHAT will be fixed by his advice to mooney...

Just a thought...

 

[puttmad]

....

I don't like STEEP shoulder turns.

Most people don't need 'em.

Ah, I see...

I wasn't advocating a steep shoulder plane. That is just the drill...which is exaggerated deliberately, just for a short while.

In my case I now have a STEEPER shoulder plane (rather than dead flat, as both mine and Mr Mooney's was), but it is not STEEP...Just normal..

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

I'm sure one of the reasons Brian doesn't need to steepen shoulder turns is because he gets his students to draw straight plane lines. Getting to the root cause sorts out a whole bunch of other things. Try losing your posture and drawing a straight plane line at the same time, not easy.

The three imperatives provide a hierarchical correction structure, get those right and the rest tends to slot into place.

 

[golfbulldog]

I'm sure one of the reasons Brian doesn't need to steepen shoulder turns is because he gets his students to draw straight plane lines. Getting to the root cause sorts out a whole bunch of other things. Try losing your posture and drawing a straight plane line at the same time, not easy.

The three imperatives provide a hierarchical correction structure, get those right and the rest tends to slot into place.

This sounds dead right... the imperatives provide the goal. The goal is based around impact.

So you correct a bent plane line until it is straight... the goal is straight and it has a direct correlation with the impact alignments. If you steepen your shoulder or whatever... how much do you do it... why does that improve your swing... if the answer = that an image of Tiger shows it to be correct then that advice is inadequate... you have failed to give the golfer the "why? "....

Imperatives rule!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Shoulder....trust me..

Really? puttmad, Really??

This guy—Mr. Mooney—just came up with that backswing on his own. In the dark?

Without watching a bunch of hooks?

Really?

You are in this group of people that need to kust get on a plane and come wacth me teach, 'cuz you have no idea how far ahead of these people I am.

Root cause the shoulder?

Sometimes I wonder....

 

[Brian Manzella]

I'm sure one of the reasons Brian doesn't need to steepen shoulder turns is because he gets his students to draw straight plane lines. Getting to the root cause sorts out a whole bunch of other things. Try losing your posture and drawing a straight plane line at the same time, not easy.

The three imperatives provide a hierarchical correction structure, get those right and the rest tends to slot into place.

Pay the man.

 

[Brian Manzella]

This sounds dead right... the imperatives provide the goal. The goal is based around impact.

So you correct a bent plane line until it is straight... the goal is straight and it has a direct correlation with the impact alignments. If you steepen your shoulder or whatever... how much do you do it... why does that improve your swing... if the answer = that an image of Tiger shows it to be correct then that advice is inadequate... you have failed to give the golfer the "why? "....

Imperatives rule!

Otherwise, all you are is a ....

LINE DRAWER!

 

[Jared Willerson]

Do the 3 imperatives all share in importance or is there one that "fixes" the others.

IOW, which of the 3 is the "root of all good" imperative?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great question.

Here it is:

Clubface, then PLANE LINE, then CLUBHEAD (Sweetspot).

 

[Jared Willerson]

Thanks for the response. Cool.

Is fixing the clubface the FLW? or Something else?

 

[Brian Manzella]

As an IMPERATIVE in The Golfing Machine, The FLAT LEFT WRIST (or its equivalent) controls the clubFACE.

It does this with "Hinge(-like) action."

Which includes the LEFT SHOULDER & LEFT HAND (and obviously) every thing in-between.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Thanks Brian