birdie_man
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Plummer and Bennett Article
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Jim Kobylinski
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Geometry doesn't change but what his ideas were in physics did.
"How is there not lots of room for advancement tho...."
Even with all the advancements in technology, clubs, balls, video, computers, training aids the average handicap remains unchanged. Why?
Why did Homer say the golf swing was simpler than driving a car?
Why did he believe as did Hogan that most people were capable of scoring in the 70's?
What can be advanced over the 3 imperatives??
Even with all the advancements in technology, clubs, balls, video, computers, training aids the average handicap remains unchanged. Why?
Why did Homer say the golf swing was simpler than driving a car?
Why did he believe as did Hogan that most people were capable of scoring in the 70's?
What can be advanced over the 3 imperatives??
The beauty of the golfing machine is that it is not style or theory oriented. It identifies imperatives but they allow flexibility as to style... The golfing machine identifies why golfers who look decidedly different, Nicklaus and Hogan for example, both get great results. Systems, ie one plane, body pivot, natural golf... all leave questions that cannot be answered. Simply, the golfing machine does not. Seeing a common language explanation, such as Clampett's book, identifies why the golfing machine and Mr. Kelly identify what is required to play better golf more effectively. Of course, this site has been doing that longer, and more effectively. Plummer and Bennett's pattern, works well for the golfers that need it. Interestingly, I understand that they will only work with tour players. Obviously their pattern will not work with everyone.
Smart guys can make silly statements.
Anyway, thanks for the article.
I talked to Weir last fall about Badds and Bennett/Plummer. He didn't sound like he had any interest in their instruction. Go figure...
birdie_man
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Well mb...I can assure you that's not due to there NOT being ANY new advances.....
....
It's due to those new advances (and lots of good information otherwise) not being widely taught....and/or taught properly....
Watch The Golf Channel lately??
....
BTW once a players "gets their swing down" fairly well I can buy the statement that EXECUTING a golf swing (that fulfills The 3 Imperatives) may be simpler than driving a car....
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Will McKenzie and Chris Couch
I watched Will hit a couple of shots today on the range.
He has a couple things I think he could improve on, but his upper body motion is very good for a Tour player swing.
I just think all of the torso tilts can be done a bit further to the right.
Not much, just a bit.
Now, Chris Couch has a GREAT dynamic pivot. Can't putt it in the ocean.
I watched Will hit a couple of shots today on the range.
He has a couple things I think he could improve on, but his upper body motion is very good for a Tour player swing.
I just think all of the torso tilts can be done a bit further to the right.
Not much, just a bit.
Now, Chris Couch has a GREAT dynamic pivot. Can't putt it in the ocean.
I don't know that it's because there are some "new advanced swing theories" that aren't being taught or taught "properly" (don't know what that means, but for the sake of the discussion I'm going to say if the teacher has taught effectively, the student "gets it"). Do you really think that if you were able to get golfers, who can't hit it well enough to break 90, to understand and execute the 3 imperatives and the 3 essentials that most of them wouldn't be well on their way to shooting in the 80's and 70's, and almost immediately?? Screw all the nit-picking about who teaches what "flavor" of TGM, whether they teach it "by the book, song and verse" or if they've been "enlightened" by some scientist's or engineer's critique of one of Kelly's concepts or thoughts. To me it's a lot of hair-splitting. I play with too many good players who have good clubhead lag, a flat left-wrist at impact, and swing on a pretty straight plane line, with balance, rhythm, and a steady head. And I see a TON of hackers who are missing many of these things in their "action".
Robbo
Chris Sturgess
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Why does Chris Couch's swing look so weird to me?
birdie_man
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I guess I meant the new information not being applied properly.
The more I think about it the more I'm unsure if I even entirely know what the hell I meant by "properly".....w/e tho....I was typing faster than usual....my bad.
I guess you can take it however you want at this point.
Alright....
I'm not sure if you're trying to shoot me down or what....
Yes the 3Is are very important (and it's good that you point that out)......I do understand that very very clearly though.................maybe you haven't read many of my posts?.......esp. the last 2 in this thread?
...
Maybe I was a bit harsh with mb.......I did and do think he missed the point tho......you seem to be missing it too.
That being- YES....the 3 Imperatives consistently is basically the end goal (+ power I guess).......that don't mean you can't learn any new stuff beyond that tho......
What about the HOW? (to get people to PERFORM!! the 3 Imperatives)
And......HOW does "such-and-such" WORK? WHY does "such-and-such" happen? WHAT is optimal? WHEN is WHAT optimal?....w/e..........etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on. Read some of mandrin's work.......lots goes into this stuff......
Look at Brian.....he doesn't sit still.......you can't.....
I don't see why Homer wouldn't still be goin today if he was able either.....
I mean, I don't think I should really even have to explain any of this for it to be real obvious to tell you the truth....
"Why are new advances important?" Whaaaaatttt......?
...
You're right....The 3Is are very very very important......achieving them consistently, as an end goal, however you can.
They/results are the main benchmark for everything.........you get the 3Is and you get consistency.
That doesn't mean you don't need to know HOW to make the trip tho.....how to get the 3Is and get people to do the 3Is....howhowhow.....
And BTW....about what you said.....about the Imperatives........in my mind, THIS is exactly what a lot of these, as you say- "by the book" (quotation marks important on that one) "song and verse" guys fail to see............and if they aren't seeing it or they IGNORE IT and push other things (for whatever reason) then they are teaching a method cleverly (or ignorantly) disguised as TGM. And about this kind of thinking- it's not even "by the book" when you get down to it. Homer put right in THE BOOK what he thought about method teaching.
"Hair splitting".........it's all part of the big picture.....so we can talk about it and get to the bottom of it.........or we can live in some kind of a dream world where we ignore differences and problems because we pretend they don't exist.
Screw that.
I dunno if you're one of those "think positive" guys....I'm all for it......but it only works if it doesn't involve putting things off that need to be looked after. (need)
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tourdeep
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It's possible, maybe more probable to see average handicaps go higher b4 lower. Technology is at our fingertips and I would think this would enhance information flow. In turn, with applied knowledge, one would think the average scores would drop.
What about opportunity cost that causes high handicaps. Housing price increases, real wage concerns, outsourcing, political arena, children, etc., life ain't getting any easier or should I say cheaper,,, weighing the tradeoffs versus playing golf. Only a minority of players have time, economic and family support to commit to playing golf at a different level, amateur or pro.
Beating balls on the range is great. But to play introduces a new swing each and every time. Feel becomes the general. And to get the feel requires a mountain of real play time.
What about opportunity cost that causes high handicaps. Housing price increases, real wage concerns, outsourcing, political arena, children, etc., life ain't getting any easier or should I say cheaper,,, weighing the tradeoffs versus playing golf. Only a minority of players have time, economic and family support to commit to playing golf at a different level, amateur or pro.
Beating balls on the range is great. But to play introduces a new swing each and every time. Feel becomes the general. And to get the feel requires a mountain of real play time.
Interesting! Are you saying the Physics in TGM have changed?
Not physics themselves, but his IDEAS pertaining to physics. Think about it. Science is always discovering new things, the key word being discovering. What changes isn't what's out there; what changes is our knowledge, understanding, or perception of what's out there. I'm sure that, if he'd lived until today, there would have been many more changes to TGM, as he made more and more discoveries during his research. Remember, Homer did what he did without the benefits of modern technology to aid him. Imagine how much more he may have learned in the last 2 decades?
Ask Sam Snead...He'd be glad to tell ya whether it worked or not!!! or yeaH he's not here anymore!!!
BTW ...Plummer and Bennett are teaching a lot more stuff to these guys than just the Pivot stuff y'all are debating...
How about Release Points, Hand Paths, Hinge Actions, Plane Angle Shifts and Lines of Compression, Transfer of Momentum, Accelerating/Braking...etc...etc...etc...
Oops...
To really know what they're (Plummer & Bennet) teaching you'd have to be observing and listening from the inside of the circle rather than "speculating" and "wondering" form the narrow perspective that is developed by standing outside the ropes....
You have no idea what Plummer and Bennett know about TGM or MORAD...just pure speculation on your part!!!! They teach multiple stroke patterns....
I spent all day Friday at the Masters with Andy Plummer following Aaron, Dean, and Mike...dressed in his adidas sweatsuit,sneakers, and wrap around sunglasses...He's says kiddingly.."Isn't this great..I work with over 30 of the best players in the world and...nobody knows who I am...I like it that way!!!"
...just a small peek into the inner circle!!!
PS...David Leadbetter is a very, very, very nice man...who doesn't understand his own stroke pattern...Hell they call him 'Lead Poison" for a reason....But knows how to promote himself and his brand!!!
http://www.golfdigest.com/newsandtour/index.ssf?/newsandtour/gw20070420rubenstein2.html
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Proof is in the Pudding.
You mean they don't just teach that HOVERing Pivot??
Seriously, I am sure they teach "the rest of the book" so to speak, but, trust me on this one, there FAVORITE PATTERN will KILL Bubba and Mr. Fabersham.
You mean they don't just teach that HOVERing Pivot??
Seriously, I am sure they teach "the rest of the book" so to speak, but, trust me on this one, there FAVORITE PATTERN will KILL Bubba and Mr. Fabersham.
Shoulder Turn
*Would there be a difference in how "TGM community" and touring professionals would understand "want the shoulders to turn steeper" and what would that be?
*How would reduction in lateral motion benefit the touring professional and would that same benefit be realized by the typical player?
*Are Nicklaus and Snead and their front knee action, good models for what these teachers are communicating?
*Would there be a difference in how "TGM community" and touring professionals would understand "want the shoulders to turn steeper" and what would that be?
*How would reduction in lateral motion benefit the touring professional and would that same benefit be realized by the typical player?
*Are Nicklaus and Snead and their front knee action, good models for what these teachers are communicating?
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You mean they don't just teach that HOVERing Pivot??
Seriously, I am sure they teach "the rest of the book" so to speak, but, trust me on this one, there FAVORITE PATTERN will KILL Bubba and Mr. Fabersham.
Hey B...No disagreement there...They do have a favorite...Andy is Big on Ball Control with these guys....Loves to talk Zone #3
Mr. and Mrs. Fabersham and perhaps their neighbor Bubba would benefit from a more level Hip plane and Shoulder plane .
Just for our viewers....
Do you want steep shoulders combined with a Lifting Left Arm and Lifted Right Elbow and a Level Hip Plane?
or
Steep Shoulders, Hip Slant, and LEFT ARM UP AND BACK ACROSS THE CHEST 45 degrees and a Right Elbow that moves up and down the Elbow Plane?
or
Flat Shoulders, Level Hips, and AND LIFTING ARMS blended on plane?
or
Flat Shoulders and Level Hips With the Left Arm Across the Chest 45 degrees?
2 are disastrous...2 will work like PB & J...
PS... the "O" Factor is going to ruin a generation of golfers...just like the Nicklaus flying right elbow....
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