Someone "in the know" would be more qualified to answer this, but unless you had people sign contracts stating you where to never discuss any of it, proving "intellectual property" is difficult. Thought I read some where that MORADS full swing was 80% Snead and 20% hogan or something like that. (I know its much more complicated than that) So even if the overall concept is his, you can only take so much ownership for it. They have their own thoughts and experiences, I don't think Mac can take credit for their entire ability as teachers. I mean how much of Mac's is Homer and Joe Norwood's ??? NO man does it alone.
Plummer and Bennett Article
- Thread starter cmartingolf
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
There's really no basis here for a lawsuit. IP suits are always very hard to win unless it's a clear cut case.
GolfDiscussions
New
Here is the link
http://www.golfdigest.com/video/index.ssf?/video/stackandtilt.html
http://www.golfdigest.com/video/index.ssf?/video/stackandtilt.html
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flipper
Mr. Finch still looks like he is a big time flipper...left hand breaks down quickly...
Mr. Finch still looks like he is a big time flipper...left hand breaks down quickly...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Big Article...Analysis by Golf's Answer Man - Brian Manzella
First of all, these guys--Mike Bennent and Andy Plummer--are good for golf. They show what I have been saying for years to be true: The "troubleshooters" ain't all that.
But the article has plenty of holes in it, and it is my job as host and guru around these parts to shoot at 'em a bit, and I will.
First of all, in my opinion, Golf Digest buried the article in the back of the book, and did a terribel job of laying it out. The Picture of the guys and their star pupil should have been on the cover and the article should have not tried to look so hip. Stay away from the 8-point type guys.
I will start from the beginning of the article and stop at EVERY point that needs "attention."
....but first....I have to give a lesson....
First of all, these guys--Mike Bennent and Andy Plummer--are good for golf. They show what I have been saying for years to be true: The "troubleshooters" ain't all that.
But the article has plenty of holes in it, and it is my job as host and guru around these parts to shoot at 'em a bit, and I will.
First of all, in my opinion, Golf Digest buried the article in the back of the book, and did a terribel job of laying it out. The Picture of the guys and their star pupil should have been on the cover and the article should have not tried to look so hip. Stay away from the 8-point type guys.
I will start from the beginning of the article and stop at EVERY point that needs "attention."
....but first....I have to give a lesson....
Brian Manzella
Administrator
PAGE 119...
"Their secret is a geometry based swing that contridicts almost everything being taught in the game today."
1. Leaning 30 degrees to the left is really where you are at the top of the swing.
2. Spring up using the ground for impact.
Seriously Golf Digest...everyone who has a 3-D vest, literally 100's of teachers, knows this. Mike McTigue said it in his research so long ago I forget when (early 90's), knows that the DIRECTION you are actually leaning at the top of an ORHODOX position is labout 30 degrees left.
"They spent years at the side of Mac O'Grady."
"A quest they immodestly call The Revolution. To back-up their teaching, they have established a high-tech research-and-delvelopment facility outside of Philadelphia.'
"...Exactly what the backswing should feel like."
"Keeping the weight on the left foot is the simplest way to control where the club hits the ground."
"Golfers who shift to the right have to make precisely...
...the same shift back to the left at impact. That complicated manuever is the biggest sourse of frustration in the game today."
"Biggest source of frustration..."
"You'll see why stack and tilt is right for you."
"Their secret is a geometry based swing that contridicts almost everything being taught in the game today."
Earth to Golf Digest: Ah.....no.
Their two magic moves:
1. Leaning 30 degrees to the left is really where you are at the top of the swing.
2. Spring up using the ground for impact.
Seriously Golf Digest...everyone who has a 3-D vest, literally 100's of teachers, knows this. Mike McTigue said it in his research so long ago I forget when (early 90's), knows that the DIRECTION you are actually leaning at the top of an ORHODOX position is labout 30 degrees left.
Ben Doyle used the spring up from the ground for impact since the early 80's at least. I have said THROW THE DRUNK OFF YOUR BACK, which is actually a better way to say it.
"They spent years at the side of Mac O'Grady."
I think they should have gievn O'Grady a chance to comment on his former protege's success.
"A quest they immodestly call The Revolution. To back-up their teaching, they have established a high-tech research-and-delvelopment facility outside of Philadelphia.'
This is interesting. Will they try to prove what they teach is best, or try to figure out what might be better?
I'll say this, if someone with Mandrin or Grober or Zick's background say this is THE BEST WAY TO SWING A CLUB, it will snow in Chalmette in June. No chance. A WAY. Period.
The person who will "take over golf," if that ever happens, will be albe to fix DiMarco, Furyk, Thorpe, Allen Doyle, etc and look like they didn't do ANYTHING.
PAGE 120...The person who will "take over golf," if that ever happens, will be albe to fix DiMarco, Furyk, Thorpe, Allen Doyle, etc and look like they didn't do ANYTHING.
"...Exactly what the backswing should feel like."
Should read: Exactly what THIS backswing should feel like.
"Keeping the weight on the left foot is the simplest way to control where the club hits the ground."
What? On a chip shot?
Seriously Mike and Andy, Ben Doyle is 75 years old, his head moves 6 inches on the backswing, and he'll hit the ground anyway you want. In fact, he'll take all your money doing the line in the bunker drill, the tee in the ground drill, or any other test like it.
Why?
Because what determines where the club hits the ground is your HANDS. Educated Hands, Andy. Right there in the little yellow book.
"Golfers who shift to the right have to make precisely...
Shouldn't have used the word precisely...
...the same shift back to the left at impact. That complicated manuever is the biggest sourse of frustration in the game today."
Are you kidding me?
First of all, the "same shift back to the left"?? Uh, you know better. The downswing shift is WAY FUTHER LEFT with the hips, WAY MORE OPEN with the hips and shoulders and then there is this little detail called AXIS TILT. Ya'll know about Axis Tilt, right?
"Biggest source of frustration..."
What kind of silly statement is that? Give me 30 minutes, and I can make a RAW beginner look like a golfer PIVOT WISE. The biggest sourse of frustration is ALMOST ALL BAD HANDS. Hand control. The Hands control the clubface, the clubhead and if they are educated, the pivot.
Which makes me want to ask this question?
Would anyone's hands ever tell them to make THAT pivot?
"You'll see why stack and tilt is right for you."
Should read: MIGHT BE right for you.
next page...
next page...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
PAGE 121...
"The hips are level at address. But because the spine tilts toward the target going back, the right hip turns much higher than the left."
"The spine should be vertical at the top."
"..the priority is to get the centers in front of the ball at impact."
"The hips are level at address. But because the spine tilts toward the target going back, the right hip turns much higher than the left."
Nope.
The hips turn on a slant becuase the right leg straightened.
I have ALL SORTS OF STUDENTS who have a FLAT shouler turn, no "hover over the left foor move" and VERY SLANTED HIPS.
Yikes...!
Come on guys, get it right!
"This (the hands an arm following the hips going back) will feel way too inside."The hips turn on a slant becuase the right leg straightened.
I have ALL SORTS OF STUDENTS who have a FLAT shouler turn, no "hover over the left foor move" and VERY SLANTED HIPS.
Yikes...!
Come on guys, get it right!
The hands and left arm following the hips going back, is the SINGLE BEST ADVICE IN THIS WHOLE ARTICLE.
Bonus points guys.
PS I can hear the Hardy-ites saying: Steep Shoulders and Flat Arm swing. You have to do 'em both.
I say: Tell that to the guys that teach a flat arm swing AND a flat shoulder turn, and think they are going to be the Revolution.
Obviously, you can have a flat shoulder turn and a steeper backswing. Now, steep shoulder and steep arms might present a challlenge...
PAGE 122...Bonus points guys.
PS I can hear the Hardy-ites saying: Steep Shoulders and Flat Arm swing. You have to do 'em both.
I say: Tell that to the guys that teach a flat arm swing AND a flat shoulder turn, and think they are going to be the Revolution.
Obviously, you can have a flat shoulder turn and a steeper backswing. Now, steep shoulder and steep arms might present a challlenge...
"The spine should be vertical at the top."
I Like it.
But....why all the lean left pictures. I saw Charlie Wie at the New Orleans Tour event and he DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING LIKE a vertical spine at address. He looked like Badds' pose! Sometimes, feel becomes real.
Put the REAL swing of Badds up next to the FEEL position for clarity!
PS. Watching Charlie Wie and Brian Gay at the same time gave me vertigo. Perhaps the two most differnt looking backswings from each other you'll see on similar bodies.
Wie looks like he is going to hurt himself.
PAGE 123...But....why all the lean left pictures. I saw Charlie Wie at the New Orleans Tour event and he DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING LIKE a vertical spine at address. He looked like Badds' pose! Sometimes, feel becomes real.
Put the REAL swing of Badds up next to the FEEL position for clarity!
PS. Watching Charlie Wie and Brian Gay at the same time gave me vertigo. Perhaps the two most differnt looking backswings from each other you'll see on similar bodies.
Wie looks like he is going to hurt himself.
"..the priority is to get the centers in front of the ball at impact."
With a wedge?
Because, guys, ah, guys, NOBODY IN GOLF HISTORY had both or YOUR centers in front of the ball at impact with a Driver. And most, if not ALL, had the "point-between-the-shoulders" center (one I use a lot), BEHIND THE BALL at impact!!!
"As you start down, feel like you are crushing a soda can under your left foot."Because, guys, ah, guys, NOBODY IN GOLF HISTORY had both or YOUR centers in front of the ball at impact with a Driver. And most, if not ALL, had the "point-between-the-shoulders" center (one I use a lot), BEHIND THE BALL at impact!!!
Cool.
But, ask Nicklaus if he thinks he CRUSHED the "soda can" better because he got OFF the left foot or not.
PS: What would Ben Hogan say to the folks like Hardy and "Plumm-ett" who use Hogan's NAME to qualify some--in my and many other's opinions--un-Hogan-like moves?
My guess?
It would be UN PRINTABLE.
....more to come...
But, ask Nicklaus if he thinks he CRUSHED the "soda can" better because he got OFF the left foot or not.
PS: What would Ben Hogan say to the folks like Hardy and "Plumm-ett" who use Hogan's NAME to qualify some--in my and many other's opinions--un-Hogan-like moves?
My guess?
It would be UN PRINTABLE.
....more to come...
vandal
New
Mreh, I kind of like the article and can see its merits. Not written very well, and I'm sure the instructors might have a few issues, but I like the concepts. They make sense to me for some reason and seem to help my swing. Of course, I think the pictures are dangerous because a lot of people, it seems, have missed the part of the article that says they are just to illustrate a feeling.
And I also like Brian's critique. Although he needs an editor sometimes, his commentaries are always full of spice.
Back to my rock.
And I also like Brian's critique. Although he needs an editor sometimes, his commentaries are always full of spice.
Back to my rock.
Has anyone with medical qualifications studied this swing yet?
TBH it looks like it could be a painful issue if you got it wrong, or made a "bad" swing....
Seems to me if you take out the natural parts of a golf swing (weight shift), you are removing the body's ability to protect itself...
TBH it looks like it could be a painful issue if you got it wrong, or made a "bad" swing....
Seems to me if you take out the natural parts of a golf swing (weight shift), you are removing the body's ability to protect itself...
Brian,
Fantastic responses.
As Carl used to say- "we can change them or we can change you".
It really looks to me as if these guys are trying to change them.
My eyes must be goofy or the pressure pads I've seen must be screwed up if what these guys preach is correct.
No question these "feelings" could really help some better players.
I wish they would show me what they've done to 12 hdcp. over the top reverser. Wow.
My favorite student used to be the guy who can't find the sweetspot trying to swing like Olin Browne. Looks like we might have a new candidate.
In all fairness to them, I have not seen them teach or taken a lesson from them. That will change soon, my guess is they must have some very positive qualities that I didn't find in this article.
Fantastic responses.
As Carl used to say- "we can change them or we can change you".
It really looks to me as if these guys are trying to change them.
My eyes must be goofy or the pressure pads I've seen must be screwed up if what these guys preach is correct.
No question these "feelings" could really help some better players.
I wish they would show me what they've done to 12 hdcp. over the top reverser. Wow.
My favorite student used to be the guy who can't find the sweetspot trying to swing like Olin Browne. Looks like we might have a new candidate.
In all fairness to them, I have not seen them teach or taken a lesson from them. That will change soon, my guess is they must have some very positive qualities that I didn't find in this article.
birdie_man
New
Nice Brian....
Who are you anyway "daPong".....?
Who are you anyway "daPong".....?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Stop with the Nicklaus pics...
If you want to use Nicklaus pics, use this:
If you want to use Nicklaus pics, use this:
Dana Dahlquist
New
I would use this for super High CF. Mabey not the arm rotaions (However the grip is good for them), for sure the tilts and COG. I have seen it done with Mac, for High shots.
Brian good pics. When I said arm rotations, I ment I would have a tough time getting it there.
speedracer68
New
I'm actually very content with what i've learned on this forum and i don't intend to change swings anytime in the far future..My question is has anybody who is not a talented low handicapper used the stack and tilt? if so what has it done for your game.
I have no doubt that a ultra talented pro can swing anyway within certain boundaries and still play extremely well..but what about a guy who is 18 and up..does anybody have any sucess stories with the stack and tilt..Just curious..=)
I have no doubt that a ultra talented pro can swing anyway within certain boundaries and still play extremely well..but what about a guy who is 18 and up..does anybody have any sucess stories with the stack and tilt..Just curious..=)
speedracer68
New
How could that not be from the same sequence?? I'm not a Pro at manipulating pics but the background and the clothes look spot on..Just a question martee..=)
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