Plummer and Bennett Article

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
1960's

Yup, it is the 60's. The EARLY 60's...

Jack's swing got WORSE on Tour, he—on purpose or accidentally—went with the trends out there.

Martee, the background were Photoshopped to get all three images in one pic.

But, isn't it funny, the people who LOVE Nicklaus the "reverse pivoter" don't really like THIS Jack.

The one that Hogan was impressed with.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Important folks...

The "One Plane Swing" and the "Stack and Tilt" swing as well as many other current "fashoins" on Tour, mainly recruits folks that have had a problem swinging "too far to the right."

I have include Nicklaus and (Below) Lee Trevino to show, HEY! you can trace a straight line and "swing left" without "hovering."

leehovernot.jpg
 
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TSP4LIFE

New
Should have used this guy for the pics would have got better pics for the article. http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/M...r_Mesquite_pictures_photos_art-0351-9824.html

Seriously though there pattern is too much on the left side with the weight all the moves are the same where as Mac would be more centered till the top of the backswing where then he would get more left before he comes down. This pivot they are showing will be good for short to mid irons but will hit long irons a little low. I get exactly what they are teaching since i was taught by the same guy they got it from, but it looks a little perverted to me. Should have used the sequence of david orr on his site that looks like it has more adaptability to different shots on the downswing like the morad model. I guess they where trying to be a little different instead of just reading from macs notes.
 
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priceunderpar

New
I have experimented with the stack-and-tilt swing based on the article. My observations:

The swing felt, and probably looked weird, but I was able to make better ball first contact with my irons. I hit quite a few iron shots better than expected-very straight, and on a more piercing trajectory. When I tried to hit my 3/5 woods or driver with S & T however, I hit some god aweful shots. Basically weak stinger type shots, or worm burners. There must be an adjustment made to the S & T method when it comes to shots played with a wood. I played 9 holes with the S & T method (my interpretation anyway) with my irons and my normal swing with woods, and played pretty well. I'd like to read more about the method and find out how P & B extends the method to driver/wood swings.
 
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priceunderpar

New
Brian,

I don't know what is usual for a first post. Maybe you could explain what you meant.

I guess your referencing Badds as the posterboy. What do you mean by-do that!

I already tried doing that...
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Truthfully.......

.....(because you just decided to come out with your first post on this now).......

.........I'm sure Brian prolly suspects you're a promoter of that method.....(i.e. someone with an agenda).....rather than just some student who actually has simply had success with it.

Don't take it too personally if you're not. It's just that there's been a lot of that kind of stuff around here....."hiding." It's easy to "hide behind screennames."
 
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priceunderpar

New
I guess I should have started by saying hello, my apologies. I've been reading a lot of threads and hadn't noticed any "new poster introduction letters".

Hello everyone. I'm happy to be part of the discussion.


I'm no undercover golf pro or anything. I'm here to learn not inform. I don't know any more about the "stack-and-tilt" method than what was in the GD article. I just followed the instruction of the article for a half a bucket and 9 holes. I wouldn't be much of a "protector, or proponent" of the method after telling everyone that I couldn't get a shot with a wood in the air, and played 9 holes with 2 swings.
 
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Leek

New
This is really interesting. My wife is taking lessons from a pro at a local club. I went to her last lesson and the guy told her to tilt her upper body forward on the backswing and to feel her weight on her left foot, then put all her weight on her left foot to start the downswing (isn't it already there if she follows his direction?).

I stay out of her golf stuff as she is a total beginner, but a very good athlete (multiple time city Tennis champion). She was already making a reverse pivot, I can only imagine where this will lead!

Anyway, my point is that apparently some PGA pros read this article and decided to start teaching this. I can only imagine what my wife will be hearing after the next GD article on something else.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Leek said:
This is really interesting. My wife is taking lessons from a pro at a local club. I went to her last lesson and the guy told her to tilt her upper body forward on the backswing and to feel her weight on her left foot, then put all her weight on her left foot to start the downswing (isn't it already there if she follows his direction?).

I stay out of her golf stuff as she is a total beginner, but a very good athlete (multiple time city Tennis champion). She was already making a reverse pivot, I can only imagine where this will lead!

Anyway, my point is that apparently some PGA pros read this article and decided to start teaching this. I can only imagine what my wife will be hearing after the next GD article on something else.
Click to expand...

This is something that i have posted on before, just because you are a PGA pro doesn't mean you know how to teach or know how the swing actually works.

This is nothing new to me, i have students come to me all the time who have told me the only thing the last pro they went to did was teach them "the flavor of the month" so to speak.

Last time it happened, i had a hardy one-planer who was half shanking every shot and the pro just told him "well ya gotta work on it." Um....no, maybe because he's a double shifer the hardy 1 plane doesn't work ;)
 
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wes Bretel

New
New to the forum and enjoying the read.

A lot of what I have read on the GD article and this forum reminds me what Gary Edwin Teaches in Australia. He has built swings like Rod Pampling, Peter Lonard. Brian I would like hear your comments on Gary Edwins teachings. For the record these players have no trouble generating power and distance.
 
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Leek

New
birdie_man said:
I don't think they reverse pivot. Just weight on left side.
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I understand that birdie, it's very much like many people do when the chip or hit explosions.

My wife already has a reverse pivot, adding that instruction to it cannot be effective. He also had her go to a 3 1/2 knuckle strong grip and swing flat
 
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PSheehan

New
David Alford said:
Deductively, you don't really need to know beans about the 3 Imperatives,
elbow plane, 4 barrels, etc. etc. You really just need to know a valid swing model the way these greats did.

I'm certainly not against golf swing theory (to the contrary), but the weakness of TGM is that it doesn't really teach you what you need to know to make a great swing of any specific pattern. The precise codes are never spelled out. What is given are lower resolution codes for a lot of possibilities. Very interesting, but in itself, not a specific blue print, the type of information that great ball strikers really know.

If somone had asked Hogan what the 3 Imperatives are, he probably would have said Grip, Set Up, and Pivot. But he knew these more intimately than just listing them suggests.

The late hit, etc. all followed as a consequence...I'm not suggesting he would have denied the vital importance of the Three Imperatives, etc; he probably just thought about the swing quite differently. If you have a great swing, you don't think about the 3 Imperatives in the same way a beginner does.

I'm also sure he would have read the book with great interest. But is TGM stuff necessary? Let's also do the thought experiment to ponder what Moe Norman would have thought...from his recorded statements, he didn't appear to have a ton of complex thoughts about the golf swing.

Having gotten pretty well into the great golf swings of the game's best ball strikers, I'm saying the information required is quite a departure from the golf knowledge often endlessly debated.

Nor am I suggesting golf swing theory is not a potential shortcut. But the real shortcut is to know what you have to do to make a great golf swing.

I suppose all this is a bit aggrevating to the golf theoreticians here...however, this perspective is not well represented. And no doubt, I haven't made a conclusive case in this brief discussion.
Click to expand...

The 3 imperatives and 3 essentials were "instinctive" or "intuitive" to all great
players. Do they need TGM?....No. However, poorer athletes or players clearly need help to improve. Their lower level of athleticism doesn't allow the body to move in an efficient or effective manner. Since there is no "the way" TGM encompenses pretty much all there is in a golf swing and makes more sense to me than any other approach I've seen. The book itself can't take the place of a great instructor but there are few of those, and the book itself with trial and error is better than a poor instructor...... imho.
 
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flapro

New
I find that ball position is more forward for driver and long irons with stack and tilt. Irons one stays fairly centered but woods move the ball forward because the weight transfer is less.
Any opinions.
Also, the left shoulder turning under the chin is same for all clubs; there is a turning down of the left shoulder going back with all clubs.
 
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protagonist

New
flapro said:
I find that ball position is more forward for driver and long irons with stack and tilt. Irons one stays fairly centered but woods move the ball forward because the weight transfer is less.
Any opinions.
Also, the left shoulder turning under the chin is same for all clubs; there is a turning down of the left shoulder going back with all clubs.
Click to expand...

Having the ball forward seemed like a natural fix for my low drives, but it just failed to work for me, and I could only hit irons well. I think it was Jimmy Ballard who used to talk about having a short left arm, and that seemed to be a good key for me in this type of swing. On the other hand, my sense of timing was thrown off because it always seemed that my arms were back to impact before I was ready. Looking at the swing Badds is making, it is clear that P&B know how much of their stuff to apply to a player to make it work, rather than having a one swing fits all style like I had.
 
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