Plummer and Bennett Article

[JeffM]

I don't think they reverse pivot. Just weight on left side.

What's your definition of a reverse pivot? I thought that a reverse pivot is primarily a tilt of the upper spine to the left to such a degree that it brings the head in front of the ball - which B/P recommend in their GD article. My own personal opinion on the B/P swing methodology is available at http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/badds.htm

Jeff.

 

[Spike]

Jeffmann,

Thank you for that!

spike

 

[birdie_man]

What's your definition of a reverse pivot? I thought that a reverse pivot is primarily a tilt of the upper spine to the left to such a degree that it brings the head in front of the ball - which B/P recommend in their GD article. My own personal opinion on the B/P swing methodology is available at http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/badds.htm

Jeff.

Jeff........I suppose it would be if the spine is tilted towards the target.

-Paul

 

[David Alford]

Brian posted two videos of myself swinging about 6 months ago "(DavidLeeAlford posts 'em UP"). One was my version of Hogan's swing. The second, an "early set golf swing on steroids".

I received a lot of flak about straightening my left leg at impact and beyond in the early set swing. My reply was to effect, "I know what I'm doing and I'm doing it on purpose". NOW YOU KNOW WHY!

 

[David Alford]

The 3 imperatives and 3 essentials were "instinctive" or "intuitive" to all great
players. Do they need TGM?....No. However, poorer athletes or players clearly need help to improve. Their lower level of athleticism doesn't allow the body to move in an efficient or effective manner. Since there is no "the way" TGM encompenses pretty much all there is in a golf swing and makes more sense to me than any other approach I've seen. The book itself can't take the place of a great instructor but there are few of those, and the book itself with trial and error is better than a poor instructor...... imho.

Pat, I didn't say the book is worthless. It covers a lot of ground, but you wouldn't learn a great swing from it easily or find a specific blue print. Presumedly, that is up to the certified instructor. The student is at the mercy of what pattern he is going to advise you on.

What happens if you want to be a hitter but he feels you should be a swinger... or vice versa... even if the teacher and student agree on the pattern, is the teacher going to know it as well as he should? That assumes the teacher knows and can demonstrate virtually any valid pattern. It's a big assumption.

Let's say the student wants to learn an early set/MORAD pattern. Are the specifics in TGM? No, they aren't. The Bennet/Plummer type of article is a lot more helpful (but still FAR from complete and inaccurate on several points). As detailed as the book is, the resolution is far too coarse for any single pattern.

Not denying that it is helpful for many in understanding swing possibilities. But swing possibilities is still a long way from knowing a swing pattern at a high level.

 

[David Alford]

Regarding the reverse pivot for this model...I don't advise it. It is a well centered swing pattern, however.

And you do go from a deeply flexed set up from address to a straight left leg at impact. The body raises up quite rapidly. I also go criticised for that in my swing clip, but it is correct. Yes, some of "you guys" were dead wrong. I'm not going to explain everything, it just causes more denial on the part of someone with incomplete knowledge.

Anyway, it's not unique by any means. All valid SWINGS use it, some more than others. I will agree with Brian, some points of this article are a bit hyped.

 

[teeithigh]

stack and tilt ????????????

hi to all...new to this forum but have enjoyed reading the posts...i also have read this "new" article stack and tilt....and it reminded me of mike mctigues' articles in GOLF MAG ..."THE SCIENCE OF THE SWING"....(brian made reference to mctigue in the archives)...those articles reallly helped me esp, the "whirlybird" drill....he states that the spine "backs up-goes right" before impact.."side=bending" to the right whereas most hacks do the opposite...so when i keyed on this i could feel a powerful and effortless whip thru impact...but i was just inconsistent...and THEN this stack and tilt article with "side bending to the left" on the backswing....my ??? should we feel a defininte "side bending" to the right on the downswing..(i believe the archive called it a "secondary axis tilt" and how does this action-reaction (i.e. tilting left on backswing and right on downswing) relate to being "stacked"???????any help would be appreciated....love this forum!!!

 

[David Alford]

Mac usually didn't reverse tilt. He just stayed very well centered. However, on occassion Mac did fall backward (at the finish) so the tendency was there. When the swing is done correctly you avoid the problem & he usually did.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

What's your definition of a reverse pivot? I thought that a reverse pivot is primarily a tilt of the upper spine to the left to such a degree that it brings the head in front of the ball - which B/P recommend in their GD article. My own personal opinion on the B/P swing methodology is available at http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/badds.htm

Jeff.

You can still make a big time reverse pivot with the spine tilting away from the target, so that can't be the definition. A lot of people do this, it happens when their butt moves toward the target during the backswing so much that their weight is mostly on the left leg. This pretty much always results in an inside path on the backswing and then a huge over the top move for the downswing wiht the weight shifting back to the right leg.

I didn't have time to read all of your article, but I took a quick look, great pictures. I would say the biggest difference in Baddely's new swing is his halfway in the followthough postion, he holds off the clubface now with his body lee trevino style. More accuracy, less power. The tradeoff works for him.

 

[Brian Manzella]

A Reverse Pivot or a Rose...

You can call it what you want, but...

If the weight goes left, and the spine goes left and the HEAD goes left...

It is a Reverse Pivot.

 

[jew]

Thought you could call it what you want???? I call it a Rose

 

[Brian Manzella]

Good first post!

Really,

I have taken it VERY easy on Mike and Andy.

They have been RIPPED several places and on my site—THIS site—they have gotten a 100% fair shake.

But...you tempt me...

Nothing wrong with a REVERSE PIVOT, the ball doesn't know you did it.

 

[jew]

agreed

 

[GolfDiscussions]

Her is a video of Elk practicing and then playing with the S&T swing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klWImVQMcP4

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks for the Video.

Let's put this to sleep on this statement:


It is A WAY to get someone who is under-plane, not to be under-plane.

I can fix 'em without all the reverse feel. Is my way better? I think so, but the proof is in the pudding, and they have had some successes and some failures, and I have as well. The trick is LEARNING from the failures and UPGRADING at all times. I am VERY SURE the more research they do, the more they will change.

I'd gladly line up on the tee with them or anyone teaching this stuff, and fix one good player, one single-digit, one double digit and one beginner/hacker each, and have it judged by an un-biased panel or the "Trackman."

I have fixed two VERY GOOD PLAYERS recently—I am talking Tour caliber guys, without any of the left lean business.

BTW, they had both worked with Mac, and some with his "guys."

 

[Dobber]

Elk vs. Lord Byron

You know, I never thought of it before, however, seeing Elk in the Driver swing video...his leg action reminds me a bit of Bryon Nelson. Not so much that it looks like a 'dip' so to speak, but just the softer legs coming through the Impact Zone....interesting.

Dobber

 

[teeithigh]

jeff, thnx for the article...the spine tilt issues reminded me of mike mctigues series in golf mag. yrs. ago "the science of the swing" in which he says most pros "side bend" to the right on the downswing...would you agree that it may be a valid method to "side bend" to the left on the backswing ala "stack and tilt" BUT then "side bend" to the right on the downswing...??? sort of a "action reaction" side bending to achieve the "secondary axis tilt" on the downswing???? when i used to side bend to the right ala mcteague i could hit some powerful shots but very inconsistent so i thought this side bending left on the backswing would promote a centered backswing??? any ideas??? steve (teeithigh)

 

[JeffM]

Teeithigh - you ask-: "would you agree that it may be a valid method to "side bend" to the left on the backswing ala "stack and tilt" BUT then "side bend" to the right on the downswing."

I don't like the idea of the spine ever "side-bending". I like the idea of the spine rotating in a spiral fashion without any abrupt side-bending.

I think that if one has a good backswing pivot, that the right hemi-pelvis should move backwards and to the left, and this will cause the lumbar spine vertebra to face about 45 degrees to the right. I think that the thoracic spine will have a natural tendency to orient itself in alignment with the lumbar spine and the entire spine should be aligned to the right - without any side-bending. Then during the downswing, the hips square and shift to the left as the golfer shifts weight onto a straightening left leg, and then subsequently pivots over the straightened left leg. During this hip squaring and lateral hip shifting motion, the lower lumbar spine moves in a target-wise direction, with the vertebra oriented towards the ball-target line (because the hips are squared), while the head and upper thoracic spine is kept back, and this results in secondary spinal tilt away from the target - without any spinal side-bending.

I think that if one reverse pivots and tilts the spine to the left, then one has to to start the downswing with a spinal tilt AWAY from the target so as subsequently develop a secondary spinal tilt away from the target in the later downswing. I think that tilting the upper body AWAY from the target during the early downswing is fraught with power-robbing and potential "alteration in swingarc" complications, and I have never read any biomechanical explanation that justifies reverse pivoting. B/P talk of a centralised spine during the backswing, and I think that a centralised spine is perfectly OK (ala Ben Hogan) as long as the spine doesn't tilt to the left of vertical at the end of the backswing.

I am sure that Brian could comment more fruitfully than me on this topic.

Jeff.

 

[teeithigh]

question for jeff or brian??

thnx jeff for the thoughtful response...i think i have been moving so far off the ball to the right on my backswing so to correct this i feel like i am "side bending" to the left but actually am staying more vertical which as you say is a good thing.....steven (teeithigh) is the tilt to the right on the downswing a "natural" response to the lower body shifting/turning to the left to counter-balance???

 

[Brian Manzella]

All you need...

Is these two things:

1. Enough weight OFF of the left foot, so you can move TO IT for maximum SIT.

2. A STEEP ENOUGH shoulder turn to accomadate the PLANE LINE you select from whatever stance line you are using.

THAT IS IT!!!!

ALL THE REST OF THIS IS JUST FEELS LIKE...

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just

Do It Right!