Power Accumulator – science or metaphor?

Status
Not open for further replies.
quote:Originally posted by Turfspanker

Don't people realize you lose credibility immediately when you pull this kind of thing?
Here a single axis guy jumps into this forum with an obvious agenda to discredit Homer. Brings in a few of his peers to help with the disguise. Never introduces the fact he is a Single Axis proponent.
There is probably room for some debate here, but put the cards on the table first.
This thread should be closed, it's going nowhere.

Turfspanker

I agree with you Turf, well said.

When some of us attended the workshop by Yoda in NC last Summer, we learned first hand how simply the golf swing can be from a book that appears to be so complicated. It’s a shame some outsiders never got out of Chapter 2 and tried educating their hands and swing a club.
 
TGMfan, I am sorry to see that simply asking me a question in a civilized way has caused the paranoia to rise to such surprising degree that several start losing the little bit of what they had as common sense and now see you as an imposter.

mandrin
 
mandrin, your's is an exercise in futility. Attempting a peer review of TGM when the author is deceased is about as useful as passing gas in the breeze, you just stink things all up.

Homer was not an engineer nor a scientist, only an aircraft technician who equated the golfswing in hydraulic terms, eg accumulator. He proclaimed his Science by only quoting Newton's Laws of Motion and then used poetic licence to invent convenient terminology to get his idea's across while contradicting Newtonian Physics.

Please understand that in the 1960's when Homer came out with TGM, there was absolutely no scientific analysis of the golfswing that linked the science to the golfswing. SPS was just a compendium of interesting informational facts, but did not provide any linkage to executing a golfswing, as Homer bravely attempted. The most scientific treatise at the time was Hogan's 5 Lessons and the concept of the illusory "swing plane". Even Hogan got confused between "feel" and "real", but that was irrelevant because he won tournaments and that's what counts.

There were, and are, no great minds in golf; only great golfswing teachers, some of whom have gleaned the essence of TGM and incorporated it into their fine teaching methods. Even they cannot fully understand TGM because it is so poorly written and badly organized. If TGM was an aircraft instructional manual, the plane would crash before it took off. Nevertheless, Homer did make some interesting contributions to the art of golf with his "pressure points" definitions. However his badly done hand sketches seemingly contradict his explanations to further deepen the mystery surrounding the masochistic aura of his writings.

Truthfully, if Homer were an engineer he would have been declared incompetent because TGM is replete with outright error, eg page 80 where he proclaims:

6-C-2-B ANGULAR ACCELERATION The Clubhead "overtaking" speed is governed by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum whereby the increasing Mass resulting from any extension of the Swing Radius decelerates the Hands ....

Perhaps Homer misspoke himself when he refers to "increasing Mass" because the Mass is constant whereas the Moment of Inertia increases when the Swing Radius increases. Homer should have caught this error unless he was oblivious to the Newtonian science he depended on. If a graduate engineer had published such an explanation under his name, his book would have quickly been relegated to the fireplace!

Another gaff occurs at page 15, where Homer gets twisted up explaining force vectors at:

2-C-O LINEAR FORCE The ball will respond to non-linear (angular) force exactly the same as to linear forces ......

All forces are linear, but it appears that Homer perceives torque as a "non-linear" force. How unfortunate and how revealing of Homers abject ignorance of the Newtonian science he proclaims that validates his golfswing theory. Homer ain't no engineer nohow.

What is even more disconcerting than the potpourri merry-go-round of references in TGM, is the total lack of calculated proofs behind Homer's science. He uses scientific words such as momentum, force, mass, inertia, energy, power, velocity, acceleration, etc. but does not provide any numerically calculated proof behind his assertions and proclamations - not one. Doesn't that raise any suspicions amongst his advocates? Probably not because the only number that counts is how far can you hit the ball apparently using TGM.

Other engineering blunders such as the Endless Belt Effect and Line of Compression are too devastating to present to the faithful here. It is interesting to note that nobody scientific refers to TGM as an authoritative work. Wonder why?

Nevertheless, Homer's monumental effort to define the golfswing is like a wake up call for the scientific world to rescue golf from the brave efforts of laymen such as Homer. We now have interesting books such as by Jorgensen and others, and the presentation of scientific papers on golf at the World Scientific Congress of Golf held every 4 years at St. Andrews University preceding The Open. But still we do not have one Grand Unifying Theory to connect the sciences to the golfswing of the struggling golfer.

Keep up the good work Big Chief Brian M to help all the Indians with their Arrows .... while doing the TGM swing dance !

Perhaps it was best put by H. Penick when he observed in his Little Red Book - "The golfing area of the brain is a fragile thing that is terribly susceptible to suggestion. Golfers are gullible." Yes ignorance is bliss when accompanied by a 280 yard drive straight down the pipe.
 
But by god, Homer can teach the golf swing and isn't that why we studied it? Yes Yes Yes

Most of you SA guys jump from one lost soul swing method to another -from Moe to Mindy to Yogi to Bertholy and back and forth. In fact one instructor threathens to sue you (the forum) if you mention his name. JK is the loonest man alive. Fits right in, doesn't he.

Homer, his book, his instructors have produced better golf then any of you ever experienced. Shame, down right pity- but I doubt any of you play even a hacker's game.


Horton. I hear a who.
 
Science simplifies while Homer confuses. That is undisputable. Thank God that several fine golfswing instructors have rationalized TGM for their own use and are constructively using it without all the sham science claimed by Homer.

Now if somebody could just scour out the fake science from TGM and produce a simplified version like - TGM for Dummies - then that would end the controversy and non-sequitor claims.

TGM is just another golfswing method for the "conventional" swing mechanics, while SA is useful for those with an anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing. To each his own.
 
The "science" works because it is based on simple laws of geometry and physics. If your egg head is stuffed too far up your fat ... to swing a golf club then maybe that is what you mean by "anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing."

What a joke.

Find me someone with "anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing." I'd like to see what that looks like.
 
quote:Originally posted by horton

Science simplifies while Homer confuses. That is undisputable. Thank God that several fine golfswing instructors have rationalized TGM for their own use and are constructively using it without all the sham science claimed by Homer.

Now if somebody could just scour out the fake science from TGM and produce a simplified version like - TGM for Dummies - then that would end the controversy and non-sequitor claims.

TGM is just another golfswing method for the "conventional" swing mechanics, while SA is useful for those with an anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing. To each his own.

Horton, I am sure that you are going to make a lot of friends here with your opinion that Homer’s scientific idea have no value whatsoever. I just hinted at one anomaly and got a very warm reception.

If in science, or in any domain for that matter, we would stop any form of scrutinizing and critique for the sole reason that someone is not there anymore is simply an invitation for regression back to the caves.

I agree with you that Homer made a remarkable contribution when science was considered art and science not present. However I simply have this very old fashioned naive idea that it is useful to know the truth.

I made the clear distinction between theory and practice, feel and real, rather in vain. Any hint toward a doubt that perhaps his theoretical ideas, you clearly consider as having no scientific value, are not 100%, meets with a lot of resistance.

Golf for me is a fascinating game and not a matter of life and death as seemingly for some on this forum. Discussion here is more of a brawl in a tavern then a friendly exchange between truly interested golf amateurs.

mndrin
 
6bee1dee -- Homer's "science" is flawed because he was not formally educated in the Laws of Geometry and Physics. He was only an aircraft mechanic. That is only too evident in TGM, and that's why nobody uses it as a scientific authority on the golfswing. TGM is flawed and confused in it's presentation of the golfswing in proper, logical scientific terms. mandrin has somewhat proven that in his analysis of "accumulators". I have pointed out several of the many blatant errors in Homer's use of Newtonian Physics.

As for the Laws of Geometry, Homer's geometry is too simplistic, amateurish to explain the actual kinematics of the golfswing. Geometry requires reasoned "proofs" and not only descriptive proclamations and out-of-scale hand sketches poorly presented by Homer (together with fuzzy photographs). There was no calculable or physical testing of Homer's geometry because his geometry was only in his imagination. It was a case of "believe it or not ..."!

Just admit that Homer is not qualified to apply Newtonian Physics nor is he able to prove how Newtonian Physics validates his golfswing claims. In fact nobody can back up Homer's "science" because there is no science in TGM. At best, TGM is a descriptive explanation of several new golfswing phenomenon first revealed by Homer in a somewhat disorderly fashion. Good golfswing instructors were able to apply those TGM terms and definitions in their teaching method, to their credit.

Your defence of TGM is personal and anecdotal which is both unproveable and unassailable. You claim TGM is superior for your golfswing results, but you cannot defend the scientific basis of TGM. You only depend on Homer's unproven proclamations that things like the Law of Centrifugal Force exists in the world of science. Would you care to define Homer's Law of Centrifugal Force for us lesser golfers? I have never heard of the Law of Centrifugal Force that Homer depends on to prove his case.

Obviously Homer has made some valuable contributions for golfswing teaching by competent instructors, but it certainly cannot be claimed to be backed up by any objective, testable scientific proof. Homer's use of science is abominable and should be carefully overlooked while delving into the labyrinthine TGM golfswing interpretations.
 
mandrin -- The truth hurts those who have closed their minds to objectivity. TGM has become a cult, as is golf for many. I do appreciate that we may be a one-two punch to the feelings of the faithful who swear by TGM. However, to proclaim TGM as based on unrefutable scientific fact does strain credulity to those of us who have dabbled in pure science and engineering.

I see your "accumulator" analysis as a purely scientific effort without taking into account how the total golfswing mechanism actually operates. This is typical of scientists who only ponder the basics of science, while engineers must take that basic science and build something out of it. Homer tried to do that even though he was not versed in the basic sciences,nor was he a genuine engineer. So what do we have? A book called TGM which is a total mess that can only be deciphered by those that are awarded the designations on Bachelor, Master, Doctor of TGM Engineering.

After having studied several of the TGM forums, I have my doubts about the veracity of the titles given to the practitioners of TGM.

"Engineering"? ... I doubt it unless I hear some convincing defense of Homer's "science" ... pure and applied .... !
 
Again Horton you talk with a load of crap stuck to your teeth. The very bottom line is anyone who studies TGM will swing the golf club better, have great ball compression and consistent ball flight. And they will know what the swing is about if changes are need. And I bet works great on people that are "anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing."

We play golf, you rather bust on folks that didn't study science as deeply as you chaps have. Mandy came on smug and just wanted feed an ego.

Homer wasn't an aircraft mechanic. And the way you wrote those words is demeaning to all the keep military aircraft in the sky. Homer was the companies innovator, problem solver and electrical technician for the aircraft like the B-17 bomber. No plane left Boeing without Homer's sign off.


If you and Mandy just want to stroke each other use e-mail.
 
quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

Again Horton ..... The very bottom line is anyone who studies TGM will swing the golf club better, have great ball compression and consistent ball flight. And they will know what the swing is about if changes are need. And I bet works great on people that are "anatomy that is not suitable for the conventional swing."

We play golf, you rather bust on folks that didn't study science as deeply as you chaps have.

Homer wasn't an aircraft mechanic. And the way you wrote those words is demeaning to all the keep military aircraft in the sky. Homer was the companies innovator, problem solver and electrical technician for the aircraft like the B-17 bomber. No plane left Boeing without Homer's sign off.

So Homer wasn't an aircraft mechanic, and only an electrical technician. He must have been self-educated in the application of Newtonian Physics to the golfswing. That's a big stretch from inspecting B-17s! As for being "demeaning" that is only the reaction to all the "science bs" being slung by TGMers who know squat about "science" but attack those who do if it does not fit in with Homer's delusions.

So how do we get from Homer's incompetence with Newtonian Physics to your success in using TGM to improve your golfswing mechanics? Perhaps it was your athletic competence and the help of an authorized TGM instructor that improved your golfswing. Ever think of that? Homer's TGM may have been the catalyst, but it certainly could not have been the scientific reason for your fine success.

As for "unsuitable anatomy", just look at the body and swing of the late Moe Norman and you will better appreciate why NG or SA or whatever is so appropriate for those who have difficulty with their short and stout torsos to execute the "conventional" multi-axis whipsnap golfswing. Btw, Moe had so much trouble generating clubhead velocity that he loaded the bottom of his old persimmon driver with about 1/4" of lead tape to increase "mass" because he was deficient in "velocity squared". (I think Homer makes reference to kinetic energy too).
 
(Horton quote)"I see your "accumulator" analysis as a purely scientific effort without taking into account how the total golfswing mechanism actually operates." (end Quote)

Then you can imagine the value it had at a "Golf" Forum? "Golf Swing discussion and debate.
 
It's strange to be painted into mandrin's corner when that's the last place I want to be, but I guess it's no more strange than seeing people defend Mr. Kelley by saying that he either didn't know, or didn't understand, the "science" that mandrin uses. To make my position clear, I think Mr. Kelley knew and understood everything mandrin has said about angular acceleration (he explained it in the book, after all) but also knew that it wasn't the whole story. The Golfing Machine that Mr. Kelley designed was much more complicated than the simple flail used by mandrin and other "scientists" to explain the golf stroke.

The proof, as some have said, is in the pudding. Understanding TGM is to understand the components of the golf stroke and how they fit together, and only a little bit of that knowledge (the concurrent or sequenced release of Accumulators 2 and 3, for instance) has been enough to make my golf stroke a whole lot better. Thank God that Mr. Kelley was smarter than the "scientists" who criticize his work based on their simplistic models.
 
Homer was a genius, self educated man. Sorry he doesn't fit in with your geek group. He liked golfers and helped them.

I don't need to know the finer points of Newton's law to know how to dump the clubhead onto the ball inside of the golfball. I don't think about CF as Acc#3 releases Acc#2 and puts a violent action on the ball. I know alittle about the Geometry of the circle to use it in a.... GOLF SWING.

And as I said it works. Better then Bertholgy, Yogi, Blake (not our Blake) and JK (loon).

Moe and Homer would get along fine. He is closer to what we do, then what you do. We like Moe.

Still I worry about you and your friends unsuitable anatomy. Does it affect anything else? Such a weird way to say you are stout.

BTW I'm 6'3 250 built like a football player and have no problem with TGM.

Did you see, Big Mike on the Big Break II? He had to be over 350 lbs and had a beautiful swing.

It isn't unsuitable anatomy that drives you to SA. It's bad convential instruction, something we aren't.

Good luck, Horton with your game.
 
Powerdraw, perhaps, am not quite sure. Going against the ‘collective wisdom’ of this forum is not an easy task, independent of the subject at hand. However don’t worry, I really don’t take it very serious, all that silly, macho, macho, noise making. I get a laugh out of it more often than not. :D
mandrin
 
It's one thing to say Homer had all the components wrong. It's another to say that his science wasn't on the mark. I am in no way a physicist.. but I understand basic mechanics and kinematics. Heck, any term you can throw out there is easily researchable. My basic understanding allows me to make simple adjustments for my students. Explaining the science of it to them, is a bit like explaining to the masses how TCP/IP packetting is the foundation of the internet.. when all they want to do is send an e-mail.

I believe Homer did his best to explain what he saw in terms he knew. He may not have been able to lable it exactly the way a physicist or engineer would, but the application of the diagrams or the components is well worth study.

It's the equivilant of someone calling table salt, table salt. To us, that seems rather logical as compared to calling it sodium chloride. If I said "Pass me the sodium chloride", I think half the table would think I'm trying to kill myself.

The difference between the opposition to mandrin and horton's comments, is that instead of stating "You are wrong because the law of conservation of momentum states... " You instead have the common tactic of, "You're a poopy face. And Homer was a genius cause he worked at Boeing.. so there."

I however disagree with Horton. I found TGM a rather easy read as compared to, say, a tech manual for my motherboard or a SCSI card. I've read more difficult directions on the side of a cereal box. However, his organization does leave a bit to be desired. It would have been preferable to order the chapters to how they should be read, rather than jumping around. But the cataloging is non-theless, an admirable piece of work which has gone unequaled.
 

hcw

New
Below I've edited my post so that it is (hopefully) more obvious what are my thoughts, what are quotes from Mandrin, and what the whole point was to begin with.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi all,
First let me put forth disclaimers that I am a long-standing, infrequent very not good golfer who really only played with his brother and dad when we got together. However, recently (~ 6 months ago) I got more interested and decided I really needed to find "my own swing". Prior to that I had been through a couple/three "swing methods" and while I had been able to perform somewhat better, I would end up falling back into some old "bad habits". I don't get to play that often and so my search has mostly consisted of practicing in my improvised garage range and reading stuff on the internet with some range work. I have "lurked" on several golf forums but hadn't really heard of TGM until this debate came up on the SA forum and I followed the link over.

Now as I haven't read TGM (having only heard about it yesterday) I apologize and request forbearance in advance if I have misunderstood or misuse any of the terminology and apologies as well to mandrin if I missed something in your treatise. I may be totally wrong, but in reading the treatise and debate and from what I can gather about TGM, from an "outsiders" perspective I think you all are pretty much saying the same thing but just can't agree on the terminology.

Mandrin, what I basically took from your analysis is that one can create more clubhead speed if you bend your arm(s) and cock you wrists than if you don't, but you don't do it by accumulating potential energy from the earth's gravitational field. I think the TGM folks are also saying bent arm(s) and wrists can create more clubhead speed and from what I can gather and it is these bends in arm(s) and wrists that are at least some of what they are calling "Power Accumulators" (again apologies if I misunderstood).

From my perspective Mandrin you answered your own question about the source of the potential energy in another post. I think the "force field" for TGM is what you said in your earlier post on 12/10/2004 : 13:40:04, namely:

"…the potential energy of biomechanical substances (ATP,CP, carbohydrate, fat), as muscles develop forces to create the torques through the lever system of the skeleton".

I think Mr. Kelley's "out-of-line configuration of the power accumulators" that you talked about in your original treatise is the same as what you described in your earlier post on 12/06/2004 : 22:11:58 by saying:

"…-you have to create some ‘space’ to allow enough time for your muscles to be able to generate adequate clubhead speed. You maximize this by making an adequate turn in the back swing and folding nicely the various angles to be able to get arms and clubshaft/head close to the spine."

Well I've rambled on long enough. I’m probably in way over my head and I’m not sure why I decided to start posting by jumping in on this debate. My main point is that from what I’ve read here, terminology aside (whether or not it is used in the most technically correct fashion), you describe a swing not all that different from what Mr. Kelley describes.

-hcw
 
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I believe Homer did his best to explain what he saw in terms he knew. He may not have been able to lable it exactly the way a physicist or engineer would, but the application of the diagrams or the components is well worth study.

I however disagree with Horton. I found TGM a rather easy read ....... However, his organization does leave a bit to be desired. It would have been preferable to order the chapters to how they should be read, rather than jumping around. But the cataloging is non-theless, an admirable piece of work which has gone unequaled.

Homer may be wrong in "theory" but correct in "practice". It does happen you know ... [:eek:)]

As for hcw's positive results, well there is always another way to S.A.C. (Skin A Cat).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top