Power Accumulator – science or metaphor?

[corky05]

HCW, Welcome! You're a brave man to decide to come out of the lurking mode in the midst of all this! Apologies in advance. It's not normally like this. There is plenty to learn from the many folks at this site. One thing I love about Homer's work is that there are more than one way to get it accomplished. Check out some of Brian's instructional articles and the swing sequences, as well!
Brian is at a PGA Golf Summit and Horton and Mandrin are not. That says it all!
Nice having you here. Rich

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by horton

Homer may be wrong in "theory" but correct in "practice". It does happen you know ... [)]

Isn't that rich.

 

[rundmc]

Mandrin & Horton,

Let's say that due to the wave of a magic wand, everybody on this forum agrees that you criticism of TGM is correct and that Homer's work is amateurish. Then what? What's next? You have magically become our new fearless leaders. Where are you going to take us?

This is not an attack. You have made us aware of your credentials in science. But do you have a track record in improving golfers' games?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Regards,

R

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

Brian is at a PGA Golf Summit and Horton and Mandrin are not. That says it all!

Yeah, I figured the brains of the forum were absent .... time to logout ... ![|)]

 

[corky05]

What? Did you miss the cut on the playability test for the 15th year in a row? It's tough trying to break 80 with your head so far up your Ass.

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

Powerdraw, perhaps, am not quite sure. Going against the ‘collective wisdom’ of this forum is not an easy task, independent of the subject at hand. However don’t worry, I really don’t take it very serious, all that silly, macho, macho, noise making. I get a laugh out of it more often than not.
mandrin

Actually Mandrin, i am one of those "collective wisdom" advocates, but i just learned with time too shut up and decide what i want and dont want to incubate...

so...for now...the only thing youve discussed related to actually making a swing that, TO ME, is worth reading and involves actually moving a golf club is your "shaft loading" comment...the rest i leave to the scientists and teachers...i wanna be a player, i'll let you research the fact that the earth is flat or round....i am in no way trying to provoke you or anybody, i am a TGM fan-a-holic, many here know that, i have read and went on many a forum, and respect each teachings, doesnt mean i agree...

i dont really like your approach so far...but am hoping you have something to give to the player as much as you seem to be trying to give to the scientists...in the end, i want that bigdog to rattle that little tin cup, can you help? can Horton? can any who reply to them?

i've studied math and hate it to the core...i did your calculus and algo and all but still hate it...personnal choice mate! but it dont mean you cant add on to my "voyage"...so if you can, please start to do so, wether i have the little yellow book full of wisdom that skyrocketed my game or not, some are listening inspite the "cult rules" lol!!!!

 

[MizunoJoe]

Powerdraw,

You're not the only one waiting to see the "proof" that shaft loading isn't required in a golf swing which compresses the ball(a real one, not a wiffle ball).

I just hope you're not holding your breath!

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by horton
Truthfully, if Homer were an engineer he would have been declared incompetent because TGM is replete with outright error, eg page 80 where he proclaims:

6-C-2-B ANGULAR ACCELERATION The Clubhead "overtaking" speed is governed by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum whereby the increasing Mass resulting from any extension of the Swing Radius decelerates the Hands ....

1. Neither Mr. Kelley nor anyone else has ever said he was an engineer.

2. When the left wrist is cocked, isn't the length of the "primary lever" equal to the length of the Left Arm, only? And aren't the hands [the distal end of the lever] moving at their fastest before the Left Wrist uncocks? When the left wrist uncocks, doesn't the length of primary lever "grow" to the length of the Left Arm plus the Club? Isn't that "growth" the equivalent of extending the swing radius of the Primary Lever and, also, "increasing" the mass of the Primary Lever assembly?

 

[horton]

Powerdraw --- How were you able to segregate and ignore the science that Homer depended on to develop TGM and pick out the gems from that "little yellow book full of wisdom that skyrocketed my (your) game"!

When I read Chapter 2 in TGM, I lost all faith in Homer's scientific smarts, and that threw the rest of the book into deep doubt. However, I did recognize that Homer had developed a method and a system to describe what he thought happened in the golfswing. His science was screwy, but his golfswing interpretations were interesting and acceptable to me and many fine golfswing instructors who are recognized as AI's and must surely disregard the scientific gaffes that Homer made.

If one makes mistakes in science and then claims to be scientific, well that just does not compute. mandrin questioned Homer's scientific concepts as is done in the world of science. That's how progress occurs. I pointed out several of the many errors Homer made in the use of scientific terminology, which just revealed that Homer was no scientific genius, and would have failed any physics exam. And yet he produced a rather complicated if not confusing interpretation of the golfswing that seems to produce amazing result for some golfers.

Perhaps, TGM should be rewritten and revised to eliminate the wrong and keep the right so that Homer's legacy to golf can be fully understood by us lesser scientific golfers who struggle to break 80 and hit beyond the 250 yard mark.

"TGM Simplified" (and corrected) .... that's what the golfing world needs ..... and I'm sure that would be what Homer would have wanted if he were still with us.

 

[hcw]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

HCW, Welcome! You're a brave man to decide to come out of the lurking mode in the midst of all this! Apologies in advance. It's not normally like this. There is plenty to learn from the many folks at this site. One thing I love about Homer's work is that there are more than one way to get it accomplished. Check out some of Brian's instructional articles and the swing sequences, as well!
Brian is at a PGA Golf Summit and Horton and Mandrin are not. That says it all!
Nice having you here. Rich

Thanks Rich, though I think it is closer to "Fools go where angels fear to tread." I have checked out some of both the instructional articles and swing sequences. I am a "sampler" and have gotten what I feel is some useful information from most every place I've visited. I tried an internet search for TGM to maybe get some of the definitions before I posted, but I didn't find much. So, again, sorry if I misunderstood/misused any terms/ideas. I'm pretty swamped at work right now, but maybe after the new year I'll look for a copy of the book to see what it's all about. Take care.

-hcw

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

2. When the left wrist is cocked, isn't the length of the "primary lever" equal to the length of the Left Arm, only? And aren't the hands [the distal end of the lever] moving at their fastest before the Left Wrist uncocks? When the left wrist uncocks, doesn't the length of primary lever "grow" to the length of the Left Arm plus the Club? Isn't that "growth" the equivalent of extending the swing radius of the Primary Lever and, also, "increasing" the mass of the Primary Lever assembly?

Yes the overall swing radius increases when the Left Arm and club extend during the downswing.

No the mass (or weight) of the arm and club does not increase, it stays constant.

What increases is the Inertia of the arm-club assembly when the swing radius increases. Simplistically, inertia is the mass (constant) times the swing radius (increasing)^squared.

I hope that helps you better understand Homer's small gaffe.

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by horton

Powerdraw --- How were you able to segregate and ignore the science that Homer depended on to develop TGM and pick out the gems from that "little yellow book full of wisdom that skyrocketed my (your) game"!

When I read Chapter 2 in TGM, I lost all faith in Homer's scientific smarts, and that threw the rest of the book into deep doubt.

well...first off i follow Homers instructions...that is to get help with whatever you work on...i need not to quote Homer its in there somewhere, so its not a pick up and do this book.

now, second, how can i ignore the science and segregate...hhhmmm...well cause Homer intended it to be so! see, whats fun about this book is that its for scientists and players, and everyone to find HIS own...so you dismiss chapter2...fine...i dont really care...nothing is perfect...but i dont give a damn at the moment about chapter 2 cause Homey gave me options...aint that fun!

what i mean is, if i go to page XI "CONTENTS"...yes, there it is...GOLF AS A SCIENCE...uh...i see 13 other options to see the golf swing to fit ME...so my catalogue of the month is "GOLF AS A DOUBLE HANDFUL"...now you tell me...is that an error also? how about "GOLF AS A THREE LANE FREEWAY"...i guess because of chapter 2, its off also?...

chapter 2, as i said before, i'll leave it to the scientist...the book is not "TAKE EVERY WORD AND ADD ADD ADD"...but from chapter two, from a PLAYERS STANDPOINT...i'll take essentials and imperatives for now..., i'll let you digest the science do with it what you will, good, theres place for you as well in TGM...aint that cool?

so you ask me how did i segregate?
well...i just followed page X "approach the book", chapter 2 was far down the list...so i guess Homer didnt intend for all to be scientists on the course...

i'll take my clearkey (chapter 14 you think?) and my right forearm and see ya on the green, if you ever stop calculating how much mass X r needed for the shot, cause your just got penalized for delay of game...so youre a WHY player and i'm a WHERE player.

good! its all in there!

 

[horton]

Powerdraw --- Very interesting approach to TGM. So for you TGM is not a scientific book, it is only a golfswing method book. It doesn't bother you that Homer's science was screwy so long as you personally get the good results you do and are happy with on the golf course or range. I call that pragmatism Powerdraw.

Now if only brianman would return from FL and help me and mandrin with our scientific TGM conundrums that stop us from appreciating the real Homer. With a Doctorate in TGM, I look forward to an enlightening discourse with Brian. Stay tuned ....

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by horton

Powerdraw --- Very interesting approach to TGM. So for you TGM is not a scientific book, it is only a golfswing method book. It doesn't bother you that Homer's science was screwy so long as you personally get the good results you do and are happy with on the golf course or range.

KEE-RECT! lol!
all i know Horton is what i see and feel...and the scorecard.
sorry for not having that doctorate, but i do pretty good with what i got...

but i am open minded, i have not trashed your stuff in any fashion, i'm always open to learn when its presented in a way i understand and can correctly use it...

oh, btw, what is a TGM golfswing method?

 

[TGMfan]

Horton,

Might I suggest that you're being overly critical of Mr. Kelley's "science" and looking for mistakes where they don't really matter? The essence of the paragraph you quoted from 6-C-2-B is that COAM slows the hands down as the left wrist uncocks. He then adds that the deceleration of the hands "can result in great loss of Clubhead Speed". Now how can the clubhead slow down if "scientifically" (as in mandrin's model) it should be gaining speed? That seeming contradiction would make me seriously doubt Mr. Kelley's scientific credentials - unless I thought a little more about the machine he was trying to design.

For instance, in 2-P he says that "The true Angular Speed (RPM) of the Clubhead is identical to that of the Hands due to the mandatory Flat Left Wrist". Now that's a constraint he's designing into his machine that just doesn't exist in anyone else's model. The Flat Left Wrist prevents the uncocking (release of Accumultor #2) from allowing the clubhead to move any faster than the hands. Contrast that to mandrin's model where the uncocking is what forces the clubhead to catch up with, and eventually pass, the hands. There's a huge difference there, but it's not because Mr. Kelley's "science" is wrong - it's the same "science", just applied under different constraints and to a different machine.

What I'd like to see is a reasonably scientific discussion of that difference, but that requires taking a somewhat broader view of what Mr. Kelly wrote without stopping all the time to quibble about whether the Mass increases or not.

BTW, it's worth noting that Mr. Kelley went to school (and presumably passed Physics tests) back in the 1920's. I can't say for sure, but I think it's likely that textbooks of his era weren't written quite as clearly as those of today. They've continued writing Physics textbooks for the last 80 years, after all, and the "science" of High School Physics hasn't changed any. I assume they've been working on presentation in the interim.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by horton
Truthfully, if Homer were an engineer he would have been declared incompetent because TGM is replete with outright error, eg page 80 where he proclaims:

6-C-2-B ANGULAR ACCELERATION The Clubhead "overtaking" speed is governed by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum whereby the increasing Mass resulting from any extension of the Swing Radius decelerates the Hands ....

1. Neither Mr. Kelley nor anyone else has ever said he was an engineer.

2. When the left wrist is cocked, isn't the length of the "primary lever" equal to the length of the Left Arm, only? And aren't the hands [the distal end of the lever] moving at their fastest before the Left Wrist uncocks? When the left wrist uncocks, doesn't the length of primary lever "grow" to the length of the Left Arm plus the Club? Isn't that "growth" the equivalent of extending the swing radius of the Primary Lever and, also, "increasing" the mass of the Primary Lever assembly?

This is the type of post the TGM side needs to make more of.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by TGMfan

Horton,

What I'd like to see is a reasonably scientific discussion of that difference, but that requires taking a somewhat broader view of what Mr. Kelly wrote without stopping all the time to quibble about whether the Mass increases or not.

There are golf fundamentals and science fundamentals, and attempting to justify TGM golf fundamentals with sloppy science just doesn't pass the test. Yes I am aware of miraculous results claimed for TGM, but that does not make TGM scientifically correct, as Homer asserts.

As for quibbling about "Mass", and "Inertia", you should be aware that those concepts are the fundamental bases of Newton's Laws of Motion. If Homer cannot understand the difference between Mass and Inertia, that can only adversely reflect on his proclamation that TGM is based on Newtonian Physics.

You can make mistakes in golf but you cannot make mistakes in science because that is just plain ignorance and misrepresentation. As for what Homer writes in 6-C-2-B that is just total rubbish only appreciated by Homer. It's just not comprehensible to the logical scientific mind. Homer is just talking to himself with no scientific validity to his proclamations. The book is strewn with such convoluted sham scientific verbiage that Homer cobbled together with atrocious grammar.

As for 2-P, keeping the Flat Left Wrist may attempt to prevent uncocking, but, true scientific testing and calculations have proven that the left hand and club "freewheel" around the left wrist whether the wrist is flat, cupped or arched during final Release into Impact. Under these freewheeling conditions the club rotation will increase as the hands slow down with the flow of momentum outwards. As for the Right hand just prior to Impact, scientific testing using pressure transducers embedded in the club handle show that the Thrust and Pressure from the Right Hand decreases and can even vanish completely through Impact. The Right Hand does not Lever the freewheeling club against the Ball regardless of what is "subjectively felt" at PP#3.

Technical golf studies were presented to the scientific community for peer review. I don't believe that Homer's science has ever been submitted for scientific review to determine if his theory is valid. But why should anybody bother reviewing TGM when Homer doesn't know the difference between Mass and Inertia, and hasn't calculated anything whatsoever to prove his scientific assumptions? Inventing words and adding scientific names to them does not make a science.

Now if somebody could edit out the sloppy science from TGM, maybe the world would be able to fully understand what Homer was talking about, rather than have the knowledge locked up by a select few while the rest of us puddle in confusion and trust what they tell us about Homer's secrets.

 

[horton]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer



This is the type of post the TGM side needs to make more of.

But Ringer, my response to rhw's post explained why he was patently wrong. Perhaps you missed reading my post and fyi:

quote:Yes the overall swing radius increases when the Left Arm and club extend during the downswing.

No the mass (or weight) of the arm and club does not increase, it stays constant.

What increases is the Inertia of the arm-club assembly when the swing radius increases. Simplistically, inertia is the mass (constant) times the swing radius (increasing)^squared.
I hope that helps you better understand Homer's small gaffe.

 

[TGMfan]

Horton,

Would you care to share your sources for those tests and calculations that prove "that the left hand and club 'freewheel' around the left wrist whether the wrist is flat, cupped or arched during final Release into Impact"? Other than your Saturday morning foursome, that is, where the average hacker's left wrist does more breaking down than staying flat.

You seem to miss the point of keeping the left wrist flat, though, if you think it's "to prevent uncocking". Perhaps you should reread Mr. Kelley's work with the intention of understanding what he's saying, rather than finding reasons to criticize the way he says it. Someone with your obvious intellectual ability should at least be able to figure out how to uncock your left wrist, while keeping it flat at the same time. Maybe then you can appreciate what Mr. Kelley says in 6-C-2-B without feeling the need to call it "total rubbish".

 

[fdb2]

Could this " Horton " be THE Peter Dillard of the SA forum? Horton, I see, posts one thought and then a follow-up in much the same fashion as Mr. Dullard.