Putting mechanics
- Thread starter bcoak
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faux_maestro
New
Gonna be honest, I didn't get this vibe at all.
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johnnymarlboro
New
If it's just me, then I apologize to everyone for contributing to the derailing of this thread. But I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here. Just so you know, Maestro, this is not the first time this has happened with Todd on this forum.
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Todd Dugan
New
Yeah, and its not the first time that its happened with other instructors on this forum, either. Sorry, total "double standard" here. Apparently, if it comes from a Manzella instructor, its gold. If it comes from an "intruder", it must be discredited.
I'm not so sure that is true in that the Manzella instructors usually provide a range of what's possible or even say they don't care for the most part, for instance, of how to get to impact. Otoh, Todd don't you have "one way" you prescribe and say you offer "truth" and anyone opposing your view is wrong, based on your "facts"? That's the takeaway I have.
But if you have latitude in what other valid methods there are besides the onplane pendulum stroke, please expound on what is acceptable to you. If nothing, okay, you are a one method guy with a strongly stated opinion.
I'm also sorry you said people who don't agree with one of your statements don't "walk in the light."
But if you have latitude in what other valid methods there are besides the onplane pendulum stroke, please expound on what is acceptable to you. If nothing, okay, you are a one method guy with a strongly stated opinion.
I'm also sorry you said people who don't agree with one of your statements don't "walk in the light."
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Actually Todd, I fully respect your right to expound on your theories. Whining because, a) your tone and authoritative grandstanding, and b) the content, was questioned is a waste of time.
You are right in that Brian recommends 'The Sheriff'. He has every right to recommend or endorse anything he likes. Typically he does so in a conversational manner that is directed at the majority, and can be understood by the majority. As a 'Manzella Instructor', our role is to support him, add to what he says, and provide answers when he doesn't have the time. We don't always come from the same angles.
There are a couple of people who speak with authority around here who aren't Manzella accredited. A gentleman who goes by 'mandrin' was questioned for a while before we began to accept his word, as well as realize his intelligence and contributions. So while we might ask the hard questions, and come across as aggressive at times, that is part of our drive to better ourselves as golf professionals. We just don't, nor will we, accept the status quo, because unfortunately there is so much unsubstantiated lore out there that we all feel is damaging to golfers.
It seems as though you share that mindset! For me, there is a small 'red flag' next to your name because of a 'dogmatic' like adherence to TGM at times as well as some opinions about putting that I feel are not as set in stone as you would have us all believe. Just to let you know where I am coming from, I have been close friends with Geoff Mangum for the past 9 years, so I feel that I have a reasonable sense of where he is coming from, as well as spending time with some other notable putting instructors, including David Orr and of course Brian.
So keep it coming. Give some credit where it is due. I am not sure of why Stockton is so beloved either, nor do I place any stock with Pelz or Utley. Bottom line, if you help people become better putters, you're doing ok, and I do appreciate your input. Just doesn't mean I accept every word.
You are right in that Brian recommends 'The Sheriff'. He has every right to recommend or endorse anything he likes. Typically he does so in a conversational manner that is directed at the majority, and can be understood by the majority. As a 'Manzella Instructor', our role is to support him, add to what he says, and provide answers when he doesn't have the time. We don't always come from the same angles.
There are a couple of people who speak with authority around here who aren't Manzella accredited. A gentleman who goes by 'mandrin' was questioned for a while before we began to accept his word, as well as realize his intelligence and contributions. So while we might ask the hard questions, and come across as aggressive at times, that is part of our drive to better ourselves as golf professionals. We just don't, nor will we, accept the status quo, because unfortunately there is so much unsubstantiated lore out there that we all feel is damaging to golfers.
It seems as though you share that mindset! For me, there is a small 'red flag' next to your name because of a 'dogmatic' like adherence to TGM at times as well as some opinions about putting that I feel are not as set in stone as you would have us all believe. Just to let you know where I am coming from, I have been close friends with Geoff Mangum for the past 9 years, so I feel that I have a reasonable sense of where he is coming from, as well as spending time with some other notable putting instructors, including David Orr and of course Brian.
So keep it coming. Give some credit where it is due. I am not sure of why Stockton is so beloved either, nor do I place any stock with Pelz or Utley. Bottom line, if you help people become better putters, you're doing ok, and I do appreciate your input. Just doesn't mean I accept every word.
otto6457
New
Hey Brendan
I'll toss my .02 in the ring.
I putted left hand low for almost two years. My putting stats didn't really improve much. But....and this is a big BUT.....I didn't have a problem with my left wrist breaking down when I putted with the normal right hand low. Which is why a lot of players go to left hand low. I went to it out of desperation, hoping that some kind of change would help. There were rounds where I alternated between left hand low and right hand low. Right hand low for putts over 15 feet and left hand low for those inside of 15 feet. Pretty sure that's when you know you've got some putting issues! LOL!!
I did feel like left hand low was a simpler stroke but it didn't do much for me. Now I will add that when I tried a belly putter for a few weeks, left hand low felt MUCH better than right hand low. But again......I didn't putt a bit better with a belly putter either. I will also add that I didn't like how my arms hung when I putted left hand low. It felt like my right arm was way inside and too close to my body. But, it seems like everyone's arms hang in a similar fashion with the left hand low. Maybe Damon or someone can chime in on that. It always looked goofy to me when I video taped my putting stroke from down the line.
So...I guess what I'm saying is.....give left hand low a go and see if you like it. It made a playing partner of mine a much better putter. He went to left hand low after he saw me do it and he stuck with it and now he is a pretty good putter.
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Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Brendan,
I like left hand low. It gives you a sense that your wrists won't break down as easily; it generally puts the shoulders in a more favourable position for movement for a lot of people; it gets you dragging with the left which helps some people; and it is a short term fix for some who don't have a great handle on the skills of putting.
I like left hand low. It gives you a sense that your wrists won't break down as easily; it generally puts the shoulders in a more favourable position for movement for a lot of people; it gets you dragging with the left which helps some people; and it is a short term fix for some who don't have a great handle on the skills of putting.
Phil Rosenbaum
New
Todd,
It iscertainly your right to post anything you want here, or anywhere for that matter. Certainly you have researched a lot on your own and with the help of others have formulated your opinions on a range of topics.. We hope you come here to learn and contribute. I like people who post, and cause others to think.
With that said: Here are a few points to consider.
What is the fixed pivot point in the putting stroke that even closely resembles a pendulum?
2 pendulum modeling of the golf swing has been used efficiently to measure some things, but 3d modeling is the way to go. Have you seen a putting stroke on a 3d machine?
PingMan is as close to a fixed pivot point model for the golf swing as it gets, because it only has 1 arm. The amount of work that Paul Wood has to do to get PingMan to hit a striaght ball is quite impressive. The accelartion properties have to be exact.
What would be the fixed pivot point for an on plane putting stroke in which the golfer holds on to the club with 2 hands and 2 arms while standing on 2 legs?
It iscertainly your right to post anything you want here, or anywhere for that matter. Certainly you have researched a lot on your own and with the help of others have formulated your opinions on a range of topics.. We hope you come here to learn and contribute. I like people who post, and cause others to think.
With that said: Here are a few points to consider.
What is the fixed pivot point in the putting stroke that even closely resembles a pendulum?
2 pendulum modeling of the golf swing has been used efficiently to measure some things, but 3d modeling is the way to go. Have you seen a putting stroke on a 3d machine?
PingMan is as close to a fixed pivot point model for the golf swing as it gets, because it only has 1 arm. The amount of work that Paul Wood has to do to get PingMan to hit a striaght ball is quite impressive. The accelartion properties have to be exact.
What would be the fixed pivot point for an on plane putting stroke in which the golfer holds on to the club with 2 hands and 2 arms while standing on 2 legs?
ok, for those putting guru's out there, can you help me out on on what are the main causes of pushing putts to the right? people say my alignment is good however, I miss 2-6 footers to the right continuously. Really becoming an issue, three three putts on the front 9 yesterday.
My thoughts are either ball position, or some people say I don't release the putter. Not sure about the release the putter deal, I have a center shafted putter and try to make a shouder pendulum like stroke.
My thoughts are either ball position, or some people say I don't release the putter. Not sure about the release the putter deal, I have a center shafted putter and try to make a shouder pendulum like stroke.
Phil Rosenbaum
New
A push could come from a variety of areas. I would startat hitting putts on an intended line, shooting the gun straight. You will need to able to hit putts that take off straight before any further diagnosis. Then check the alignment of the putter face within your setup, the face could still bit a bit open to the intended line at impact, if the ball is not far enough forward in your stance. Lastly, a slight upward strike will help a bit. It will be easier to strike up, just a little, with the ball forward in your stance. Your stroke does not lend itself to any type of releasing the blade feel.
Can you post a belly view video?
Can you post a belly view video?
duckjr78
New
I had to start thinking "d plane" and swing just a touch left to get the ball to start on the intended line.
Todd Dugan
New
Phil, a belly putter can execute an in-plane stroke with a single, fixed pivot at the belly/grip cap. Ditto for a wrist-only stroke (Lost art. Try it sometime on a 3-footer. Pretty much fool-proof when the pivot, at the hands, remains fixed). With "conventional" putting, can not soley torso rotation power an in-plane stroke, in which case the fixed pivot is the center of the torso rotation? And even when multiple pivots are in effect, can not the human reproduce the in-plane action about a fixed pivot of a model which does the same?
mjstrong
New
Most players (amateurs and pros) do not aim the putter face perfectly square to their intended starting line on a putt as short as 6 feet. This is an area for potential improvement across the board. A very precise setup can allow a better stroke to develop.
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BrendanC
New
Agree with you Damon, LHL certainly feels like a shortcut out of the woods.
For me it was a great way to nail some principles I reckon I was totally missing before. Main thing is I can feel the left arm and club working as a single unit - which I've never really done before.
Also, as Otto said, it is a little tricky for longer putts. I think trusting that there is enough 'juice' in the (longer) backswing is the key.
But I like that manipulation in the downswing means you get a TERRIBLE result, instead of the sort of bad result that a manipulated right hand yip/breakdown with standard right hand low gives you. (not dissimilar to the point often made in the blades v GI debates)
For me it was a great way to nail some principles I reckon I was totally missing before. Main thing is I can feel the left arm and club working as a single unit - which I've never really done before.
Also, as Otto said, it is a little tricky for longer putts. I think trusting that there is enough 'juice' in the (longer) backswing is the key.
But I like that manipulation in the downswing means you get a TERRIBLE result, instead of the sort of bad result that a manipulated right hand yip/breakdown with standard right hand low gives you. (not dissimilar to the point often made in the blades v GI debates)
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faux_maestro
New
ABSOLUTELY! Precision leads to precision.
Phil Rosenbaum
New
I agree about poor aim, but you gotta start somewhere. That somewhere is the ability to hit the ball on the intended line. In essence hit a straight putt.
Phil Rosenbaum
New
Sure Todd, but let me ask you this.
Why is an in plane putting stroke relevant? I can swing on plane with a bad grip and poor aim and an open face and I would still be a bad putter with an in plane stroke. There are some more important skills that the players needs other than an in plane stroke in order to putt better.
Todd Dugan
New
Phil, I did list earlier several strong points for the in-plane stroke as the most naturally-repeatable. And of course, you still need to read the green, aim the clubface, and produce the required clubhead speed. But for anyone with lingering questions about the merit of an in-plane stroke, please try a laser pointer, plane board, suspended straight edge, fence rail, etc. You'll almost surely realize that the in-plane stroke is what you've bee TRYING to do. It FEELS like a so-called "straight-back-straight-through" stroke.......because it is......straight back and straight through ON a straight line. ONLY an in-plane stroke moves the putter continually ON a straight line. I think that once players allow themselves the freedom to allow the putter head to move inside the Target Line, the biggest obstacle to an in-plane stroke is removed. But we need to understand that the putter head isn't moving just any 'ol place inside the Target Line. It is moving on a straight line...a plane....inclined. And to quote Manz from the Sheriff video...."It feels like when I'm putting really well".
birly-shirly
New
Todd - is everything other than the fixed pivot moving on the same plane, or a parallel plane, to the plane the clubhead moves in?
I can see that being easy, or at least easier, to do with a belly or a long putter. Less so with a conventional putter.
I can see that being easy, or at least easier, to do with a belly or a long putter. Less so with a conventional putter.
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