Brian Manzella
Administrator
Whoa...
Have I ever gotten my chance at your stroke?
Have I ever gotten my chance at your stroke?
Putting Rant
- Thread starter otto6457
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Richie3Jack
New
I'd say get yourself on a SAM Puttlab. That will at least clear some of the fog and provide some of the answers.
My guess is that your stroke is probably pretty good because you work at it so much. The consistency of your stroke may be a little weak. I've seen enough SAM Puttlab reports from people who complain about their putting to find that their stroke scores out quite well, but their consistency is only decent. Many of the tour pros, even Loren Roberts, don't score that well with their putting stroke, but they are incredibly consistent with their putting stroke.
You probably have your aim off to a degree and that causes some of the problems. And you probably struggle to read greens properly and that along with a few things in your stroke are causing you to have an inconsistent speed/touch.
Maybe that's all wrong, but that's usually what I see from people who struggle with their putting. Once they are put on the SAM puttlab, the story starts to unfold.
3JACK
My guess is that your stroke is probably pretty good because you work at it so much. The consistency of your stroke may be a little weak. I've seen enough SAM Puttlab reports from people who complain about their putting to find that their stroke scores out quite well, but their consistency is only decent. Many of the tour pros, even Loren Roberts, don't score that well with their putting stroke, but they are incredibly consistent with their putting stroke.
You probably have your aim off to a degree and that causes some of the problems. And you probably struggle to read greens properly and that along with a few things in your stroke are causing you to have an inconsistent speed/touch.
Maybe that's all wrong, but that's usually what I see from people who struggle with their putting. Once they are put on the SAM puttlab, the story starts to unfold.
3JACK
Billy_the_worm
New
thefuture37
Banned
any putting method is "valid" for any person. its not a full swing with a driver. theres no flexibility or body type issues like there might be in a full swing.
Agree 100%
Aim, green reading and consistency, especially on the longer putts. No matter the length, you need to end up with a gimmee. Start with SAM.
Aim, green reading and consistency, especially on the longer putts. No matter the length, you need to end up with a gimmee. Start with SAM.
Richie3Jack
New
I work very intently on speed on the practice green before a round. If I can get the speed down pretty well, I shouldn't be 3 putting too much. Not only have I increased the chance of making the putt with proper speed, but I should be leaving myself with tap ins. And if I get a day where I'm reading greens and aiming well, I can then start really dropping putts.
There's often too much expectations on the putting green. Most courses have rough greens which are tougher to putt on and many golfers can hit 15 greens, but are left with 30-50 foot birdie putts with huge slopes and can't believe they had 35 putts on the day.
3JACK
vjsinger
New
A question for ya 3Jack..How do you work on speed, if you don't mind sharing?? What sort of things do you do?? Or maybe if you could give an example of your routine before a round and when you are just practicing your putting and not playing.. Thank you for sharing.
Richie3Jack
New
I have a bunch of those paper coasters that you can get a restaurant. I use them for a 'pretend golf hole.' Pelz has them, but for some reason he justifies charging $17 (shipping not included) for them. Absolutely ridiculous.
Anyway, reason why I use them is I want to get a good feel for the speed even on putts I make. Problem is when you make putts, the hole 'gets in the way.' So this coaster works fine. It's slightly smaller than a real cup.
So what I'll do is find a part of the putting green where there's a little slope. I'll hit 4 uphill putts, 4 downhill putts, then 4 sidehill putts. I use Geoff Mangum's advice on optimal speed....works a lot better and makes a lot more sense than Pelz's 17" speed theory.
I'll then repeat the task at least 2 more times. So after doing 3 repititions, if I like where my speed is, I'll move on. If I don't, I'll keep working on it until I get my speed down. If I'm struggling with speed, it's usually because I'm not letting gravity do the work on the thru stroke. If I'm hitting it too far or too short, I just make adjustments with my eyes and mind.
After that's done, I'll then putt to a real cup. I'll try ONE uphill, ONE dowhill, ONE left to right and ONE right to left putt. I'll treat each of these like it's the real thing...like being on the 72nd hole at the US Open. Find the fall line, read the putt, take the practice strokes, aim and then putt it out. I usually do this with each putt being about 10-15 feet. If I like what I did there, I'll then try it again, but from about 30 feet on each putt. Then I'll move onto the driving range.
I usually show up about 45 minutes before my tee time on a regular round with friends. When I played some mini-tour events, I always showed up 2 hours before tee off. So tournament time meant much more time on the greens (and the range). If I'm just practicing, I may spend 2 hours just on putting. Still along the same lines, just more time practicing it.
To me, a lot of it is realistic expectations. Dustin Johnson told me that he says to himself that if he focuses on the putt at hand pretty well, does a decent job of reading the green and makes a pretty decent stroke, if he misses it...even if it's a 5 footer...in his mind he did his job, it just didn't work out for him.
Either way, you have to find out what works for you.
3JACK
otto6457
New
Thanks for the input guys
Well...
It's a brand new day, the weather looks pretty good again. (a bit windier), and hope springs eternal once again. I wanted to thank everyone that took that trip to "misery-ville" with me last night.
I did stay up until 3:00am this morning re-reading Rotella's "Putting Out of Your Mind" after reading Robbo's great post. I obviously "care" a LOT. I will try to just let it go today with a clean read and no thoughts of stroke and see if it's a better day. If nothing else it should provide a less stressful day.
Holeout asked if I am successful at the drills I listed. Sometimes. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it's the truth. Some days, my putting is pretty damn good. But more and more....it's pretty damn awful. The thing that puzzles me is that on the practice green before a round, I can roll a few putts and it feels like it's going to be a good day. Then by the 3rd or 4th hole, it's clear the day is going to be brutal. Once my confidence drains away, I can't get the train back on the tracks.
Sunns mentioned taking a long break and I did that last summer. I took six weeks off without touching a golf club or even watching golf on TV. I walked completely away for a bit. It was a combination of trying so hard to get the game in shape for last years State Am, never getting anything going and just flat out being burned out from all the work. Did it help my putting? Probably not much, but it did help my attitude. I played some good golf when I came back. Do I take another long break this year? I may if the game brings me this much irritation every time I tee it up. I really want to at least play in the West Texas An in June, but my game will determine that.
Richie mentioned getting on a SAM Puttlab, which is something I would love to do. Obviously, out here on the tundra of the High Plains of Texas, there isn't one to try. If there was one in Dallas or somewhere else within driving distance, I'd leave next weekend.
And Brian....
As luck would have it, the last few times we played, my putting wasn't too bad. We were more concerned with my too inside out swing path and I was planning on the next trip down, we would work on putting. Alas....the best laid plans I guess. The "plan" is to get back down in the spring and spend a few days looking at the whole game.
Again...party people....thanks for letting me vent. Often I feel better after writing it all down but having the membership offer assistance is quite humbling. I'm not about to give up yet, but sometimes the battle needs to go my way at least a few times.
Well...
It's a brand new day, the weather looks pretty good again. (a bit windier), and hope springs eternal once again. I wanted to thank everyone that took that trip to "misery-ville" with me last night.
I did stay up until 3:00am this morning re-reading Rotella's "Putting Out of Your Mind" after reading Robbo's great post. I obviously "care" a LOT. I will try to just let it go today with a clean read and no thoughts of stroke and see if it's a better day. If nothing else it should provide a less stressful day.
Holeout asked if I am successful at the drills I listed. Sometimes. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it's the truth. Some days, my putting is pretty damn good. But more and more....it's pretty damn awful. The thing that puzzles me is that on the practice green before a round, I can roll a few putts and it feels like it's going to be a good day. Then by the 3rd or 4th hole, it's clear the day is going to be brutal. Once my confidence drains away, I can't get the train back on the tracks.
Sunns mentioned taking a long break and I did that last summer. I took six weeks off without touching a golf club or even watching golf on TV. I walked completely away for a bit. It was a combination of trying so hard to get the game in shape for last years State Am, never getting anything going and just flat out being burned out from all the work. Did it help my putting? Probably not much, but it did help my attitude. I played some good golf when I came back. Do I take another long break this year? I may if the game brings me this much irritation every time I tee it up. I really want to at least play in the West Texas An in June, but my game will determine that.
Richie mentioned getting on a SAM Puttlab, which is something I would love to do. Obviously, out here on the tundra of the High Plains of Texas, there isn't one to try. If there was one in Dallas or somewhere else within driving distance, I'd leave next weekend.
And Brian....
As luck would have it, the last few times we played, my putting wasn't too bad. We were more concerned with my too inside out swing path and I was planning on the next trip down, we would work on putting. Alas....the best laid plans I guess. The "plan" is to get back down in the spring and spend a few days looking at the whole game.
Again...party people....thanks for letting me vent. Often I feel better after writing it all down but having the membership offer assistance is quite humbling. I'm not about to give up yet, but sometimes the battle needs to go my way at least a few times.
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Richie3Jack
New
This may sound really stupid, but are you looking at the line with your dominent eye??
I often fall into the bad habit of looking at putts with my left eye, because I'm right handed.
This causes my dominant eye to only look partly down the line when viewing the putt.
The great Bobby Locke, always made sure to turn his head completely to his left so that he could see the line with his right (dominant eye)
I think this is a very underrated aspect of putting.
Just a thought.
I often fall into the bad habit of looking at putts with my left eye, because I'm right handed.
This causes my dominant eye to only look partly down the line when viewing the putt.
The great Bobby Locke, always made sure to turn his head completely to his left so that he could see the line with his right (dominant eye)
I think this is a very underrated aspect of putting.
Just a thought.
otto6457
New
Update From Putting Hell! LOL!!
The weather today was not so nice. It was sunny and 63 degrees, but the wind was tough. 25-30mph with gusts to 40 and the dust turned the sky a lovely shade of tan. Ball striking suffered today so I missed quite a few greens and the wind even made chipping and bunker play challenging so I missed A LOT of up and downs. If I didn't get inside of a couple of feet, I wasn't going to one-putt. With the wind as bad as it was, I gave myself some leeway on putting performance today.
I only played nine holes as the fun factor was pretty low today and fell lower as my putting was awful again. I committed to "caring less" about my putting results and I just made my read, one practice stroke, look at the hole, eyes back to ball and pull the trigger.
Pretty much the same result. 18 putts with one three putt. The 3 jack was from 55 feet over an elephant's graveyard of a green into the howling gale. Still, I left the first putt 6 feet short, which is unforgivable. I only made one birdie putt and it was from 9 feet. It is really hard to "not care" when the scorecard has 5's all over it.
I believe I may have an aim bias to the left but I'm not sure how to correct it. I am very left eye dominant which may be part of my problem, I'm not certain how to resolve aim bias if it's part of my left eye dominance.
Anyway.....I really appreciate all the input folks and thanks to 3Jack for the PM.
I'll do all I can do to fix my putting. It's just too important to leave it like it is. Hopefully the economy will improve a bit by spring (the car business is just horrible right now) and I can afford to go see Brian for a total game tune-up and we can spend some time looking at my putting.
State Am qualifying is May 5th so that one is definitely iffy right now. On my best day, qualifying for the State Am would be tough since out here it's all college golfers that fill up the field. The West Texas Am is in July, so that looks like a more reasonable goal. More guys my age.
And thanks for the suggestion Tball. Since I am left eye dominant I'm not sure what I can do differently. I try to swivel my head to where both eyes are lined straight up and down like Geoff Mangum recommends.
All in all......I didn't get as upset today, but I didn't putt much better. It would seem that I have allowed several issues to build up over time and I need another set of eyes to take a look at me.
Thanks again guys for all the suggestions and info, and hopefully one of these days I'll be able to make a more positive report from the High Plains of Texas.
The weather today was not so nice. It was sunny and 63 degrees, but the wind was tough. 25-30mph with gusts to 40 and the dust turned the sky a lovely shade of tan. Ball striking suffered today so I missed quite a few greens and the wind even made chipping and bunker play challenging so I missed A LOT of up and downs. If I didn't get inside of a couple of feet, I wasn't going to one-putt. With the wind as bad as it was, I gave myself some leeway on putting performance today.
I only played nine holes as the fun factor was pretty low today and fell lower as my putting was awful again. I committed to "caring less" about my putting results and I just made my read, one practice stroke, look at the hole, eyes back to ball and pull the trigger.
Pretty much the same result. 18 putts with one three putt. The 3 jack was from 55 feet over an elephant's graveyard of a green into the howling gale. Still, I left the first putt 6 feet short, which is unforgivable. I only made one birdie putt and it was from 9 feet. It is really hard to "not care" when the scorecard has 5's all over it.
I believe I may have an aim bias to the left but I'm not sure how to correct it. I am very left eye dominant which may be part of my problem, I'm not certain how to resolve aim bias if it's part of my left eye dominance.
Anyway.....I really appreciate all the input folks and thanks to 3Jack for the PM.
I'll do all I can do to fix my putting. It's just too important to leave it like it is. Hopefully the economy will improve a bit by spring (the car business is just horrible right now) and I can afford to go see Brian for a total game tune-up and we can spend some time looking at my putting.
State Am qualifying is May 5th so that one is definitely iffy right now. On my best day, qualifying for the State Am would be tough since out here it's all college golfers that fill up the field. The West Texas Am is in July, so that looks like a more reasonable goal. More guys my age.
And thanks for the suggestion Tball. Since I am left eye dominant I'm not sure what I can do differently. I try to swivel my head to where both eyes are lined straight up and down like Geoff Mangum recommends.
All in all......I didn't get as upset today, but I didn't putt much better. It would seem that I have allowed several issues to build up over time and I need another set of eyes to take a look at me.
Thanks again guys for all the suggestions and info, and hopefully one of these days I'll be able to make a more positive report from the High Plains of Texas.
otto6457
New
How often do you practice them?
I do specific speed drills at least three times a week and I practice my putting every day. I practice A LOT!!
The amount I practice seems to have very little impact on how I putt. That is the thing that galls me the most. The more I practice, the less return I get on the practice. I can 'not' practice for several weeks and have EXACTLY the same putting stats as I do when I practice daily. In every other facet of my game, I have been able to outwork a lot of people and make myself a better player. {Putting has been an area that I have not improved, in spite of working very hard. I have players comment on how much they see me on the practice green so I must be a very good putter. If time spent practicing was the key to being good, I honestly should be one of the best putters in at least West Texas.
I'm not.
Compared to the better players I play with, I'm a very weak putter. Compared to the world of "average" golfers shooting in the 90's, my putting is probably about average.
Very frustrating.
Steve Greffen
New
Not that this is going to be a help on mechanics, but as obvious as it seems that you struggle with it, I am sure you discuss it with others including your peers. So in turn they all think you are a sub-par putter etc. Why not turn it around in your head and start talking about how good you are at some aspects of putting and eliminating the negativity. You have read the shrink books so you should know that by now, but taking a stance (draw a line in the sand) and say (if even just to yourself) I am a great putter, all those hours of practice may actually pay off. Then maybe you won't have to feel that you need to put all that time into it, taking even more pressure off of your results and seeing better results.
Easy to say this and easy to say I tried and it doesn't work but you do have to commit 100% or it becomes a sham.
Best of luck in your putting excellence!
Get Brian to help fix it!
In the meantime, I've improved after a couple blocks of time with Brian and after buying The Sheriff and experimenting all winter. My goal has been to find a way that I could putt close to "on plane" while still feeling the swing of the putter weight and relying on gravity to power the ball. Neither the Pelz nor Mangum worked for me (I couldn't feel the weight of the putter and swing it naturally with either method - I felt very mechanical, I do know those methods do work for some people). Now I feel like I am just lightly tossing the putterhead through the ball with no bounce-back and little butt-end of the putter "travel." Distance control is much improved. Still working on line....
In the meantime, I've improved after a couple blocks of time with Brian and after buying The Sheriff and experimenting all winter. My goal has been to find a way that I could putt close to "on plane" while still feeling the swing of the putter weight and relying on gravity to power the ball. Neither the Pelz nor Mangum worked for me (I couldn't feel the weight of the putter and swing it naturally with either method - I felt very mechanical, I do know those methods do work for some people). Now I feel like I am just lightly tossing the putterhead through the ball with no bounce-back and little butt-end of the putter "travel." Distance control is much improved. Still working on line....
Otto,
It was sort of funny that after replying to your initial post, I had "one of those rounds" yesterday. Hit 16 greens...... 37 putts.... and shoot 75. It included 5 three-putts. Of the 37 I was probably thinking about whether I made it or missed it on maybe 3 of them. I assure you that fact makes a 37 putt round easier to swallow (although I'm not happy about having that many putts, on my home course no less). It was simply one of those days when NO ONE among our 2 groups made a putt. I chalk it up to some tricky pins and a few mis-reads.
I also want to suggest that you don't put any qualifiers "on hold" due to struggling with the putter. I'm not much of a believer in "take time off and hope things get better". If you're truly stale and really burned-out on the game, then yes, a sabbitical might be required. But if something in your game simply isn't working properly, then it's probably gonna still be waiting for you when you return. The pressure level in those qualifiers is much different than casual golf (as you're aware I'm sure). The only way to broaden your comfort zone is to "do it". Even if your putter holds you back from qualifying, you'll be in a better position to perform in them when you've got the putting where you want it. And you never know when that flat-stick is going to heat up. One hot round is all it takes!
I hope we can BOTH discuss this over a beer at the state AM this year.
Robbo
It was sort of funny that after replying to your initial post, I had "one of those rounds" yesterday. Hit 16 greens...... 37 putts.... and shoot 75. It included 5 three-putts. Of the 37 I was probably thinking about whether I made it or missed it on maybe 3 of them. I assure you that fact makes a 37 putt round easier to swallow (although I'm not happy about having that many putts, on my home course no less). It was simply one of those days when NO ONE among our 2 groups made a putt. I chalk it up to some tricky pins and a few mis-reads.
I also want to suggest that you don't put any qualifiers "on hold" due to struggling with the putter. I'm not much of a believer in "take time off and hope things get better". If you're truly stale and really burned-out on the game, then yes, a sabbitical might be required. But if something in your game simply isn't working properly, then it's probably gonna still be waiting for you when you return. The pressure level in those qualifiers is much different than casual golf (as you're aware I'm sure). The only way to broaden your comfort zone is to "do it". Even if your putter holds you back from qualifying, you'll be in a better position to perform in them when you've got the putting where you want it. And you never know when that flat-stick is going to heat up. One hot round is all it takes!
I hope we can BOTH discuss this over a beer at the state AM this year.
Robbo
dashfan87
New
you could end up like my dad... 60 years old, playing for 44 years, and he still cant putt.... just saying...
hey, you know, when I was 5 years old, my dad his friend, and my uncle all picked this really odd place to putt from, everyone tried and no one could get it closer than 5 or 6 feet, I asked if I could try, they laughed and said sure... I knew what to do, there was no doubt in my mind where that ball needed to go in order to get it to the hole, no doubt how hard I needed to hit it. I ended up putting that ball 90 degrees away from the hole, 30 feet up a hill and it fell back toward the hole, to about 3 inches short of the hole. 5 years old.... I have no clue how to putt anymore.... but I remember that as clear as can be, my dad tells the story to EVERYONE we play with.
All I know is, putting is 10 percent mechanics, and 90 percent intuition.... I just muttled up that intuition by replacing it with mechanics over the years.
Trying to perfect an already pretty damn good intuition is death to the putting stroke, and I bet thats what you did when you were younger. Now you are suffering for it.
I feel you, I only hope now that I have come to that realization that I can get some of that putting intuition back.
hey, you know, when I was 5 years old, my dad his friend, and my uncle all picked this really odd place to putt from, everyone tried and no one could get it closer than 5 or 6 feet, I asked if I could try, they laughed and said sure... I knew what to do, there was no doubt in my mind where that ball needed to go in order to get it to the hole, no doubt how hard I needed to hit it. I ended up putting that ball 90 degrees away from the hole, 30 feet up a hill and it fell back toward the hole, to about 3 inches short of the hole. 5 years old.... I have no clue how to putt anymore.... but I remember that as clear as can be, my dad tells the story to EVERYONE we play with.
All I know is, putting is 10 percent mechanics, and 90 percent intuition.... I just muttled up that intuition by replacing it with mechanics over the years.
Trying to perfect an already pretty damn good intuition is death to the putting stroke, and I bet thats what you did when you were younger. Now you are suffering for it.
I feel you, I only hope now that I have come to that realization that I can get some of that putting intuition back.
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