questions about sequencing

[Erik_K]

I am someone who has, more or less, a classic OTT looking type move down into the ball. My shoulders are perhaps too active too early and the hands sort of move out to the ball, I am wondering if a better feeling, for me, is to resist the shoulders opening on the DS.

When I had a lesson with Kevin Shields one of things that I felt was a "smallness" to the golf swing. The term we coined was "quiet chest." That is to say it was the arms that provided the initial acceleration and the shoulders sort of responded to that motion. They are pulled around instead of throwing the arms/hands out to the ball.

Does anyone else experience this? I wonder if a better feeling is the idea of actually trying to hit the ball with "square" shoulders at impact. I'd imagine it's going to feel like the arms are leading and will "pass" the torso at impact. The upper body, then, follows and is responding to being pulled around by the hands whipping the club through (?)

Erik

 

[spktho]

I'm in the same boat with you trying to figure out a better pattern than swinging with the shoulder turn resulting in a bunch of pulls.

What I'm finding so far with the driver and longer clubs and getting a vertical left arm is that you have to open the hips early in the downswing to get there while having a pretty quiet shoulder turn, but at some point in the downswing the shoulders have to turn. It must be much later than we are used to.

 

[coachwalls]

A couple things happened to me that have gotten my swing to a point that I think you are trying to get to.

One was a Manzella video about throwing a ball hard into the ground from the top. He talked about learning to swing past the left leg. I'll look for it and link it here.

The second was a combination of ideas about the release and the bump it back keep it back that Art talks about. Trying to keep my shoulders closed and upper back to the target was not helping me. Something Art wrote, I wish I could remember what it was, made me think about trying to keep my lower back to the target and not worry about what the shoulders are doing.

I hope it doesn't sound to much like a golf mag "tip" because it's much more than a mental thought for me. Combine that with throwing it past the left leg (or swinging left what ever works for you) and I've started hitting some really nice push draws with a lot of power and a lot less perceived effort.

 

[coachwalls]

Here's the link to the video.

The Brian Manzella Golf Show - Episode 8 - YouTube

 

[Mike Richardson]

One was a Manzella video about throwing a ball hard into the ground from the top. He talked about learning to swing past the left leg. I'll look for it and link it here.

There's also a good short demo of this in Brian's video in the recent "backing up the shaft" thread.

 

[spktho]

Ya, Ball Bouncing drill is great for the right arm and body feel. I seem to have trouble preserving that motion when adding the left arm to the club.

I'm still trying to figure it out, but it seems when using both arms on the club, I have to have the feel of the hands moving in toward the body and down then more up past impact to get a better hand path while using the hips like the Ball Bouncing drill. Another feel I'm getting is to preserve the club shaft and hands angle from set up to impact. Hope I'm on the right track.

 

[aa034321]

I'm glad you brought this up. I cannot for the life of me reconcile "bump it back keep it back" with "clearing the left hip".

Unless you have some sort of congenital double jointed hip condition (and maybe this is why 99.999999% of us don't play this game on TV) how the heck can you keep anything held back, be it hips, lower back, upper back or shoulders, and still clear your left hip?

Adding to my confusion is the advice to unwind the downswing from the ground up, hips lead the hands which lead the clubhead, feel like the club is lagging way behind you, etc......and my pumpkin wants to explode.

So I guess my question is....are we simply talking about different strokes for different folks?

 

[spktho]

So I guess my question is....are we simply talking about different strokes for different folks?

YES!

The treatment has to fit with the diagnosis, though. Some people need to keep it back A LITTLE LONGER than they normally do to allow some other part to move on a more correct sequence or path.

 

[aa034321]

YES!

The treatment has to fit with the diagnosis, though. Some people need to keep it back A LITTLE LONGER than they normally do to allow some other part to move on a more correct sequence or path.

Got it...I guess my lingering question would be....I can and have swung the club both ways...armsy where the arms pass the body (usually a pull hook unless the face is wide open) and body turning with club and arms lagging behind. It SEEMS like swinging the arms past the left hip or stalled/slowed pivot would make it more difficult to have the shaft leaning forward at impact but I don't know...maybe it's just a question of flexibility.

I do know this...when my left hip moves....so does my right...maybe I'd be on TV if I could move my left hip while keeping my right hip stationary....

 

[golfie]

In the transition, the right hip is stationary-ish and rotates. The left hip rotates about the stationary right hip. Not difficult or extraordinary.

Golfie

 

[hp12c]

I am someone who has, more or less, a classic OTT looking type move down into the ball. My shoulders are perhaps too active too early and the hands sort of move out to the ball, I am wondering if a better feeling, for me, is to resist the shoulders opening on the DS.

When I had a lesson with Kevin Shields one of things that I felt was a "smallness" to the golf swing. The term we coined was "quiet chest." That is to say it was the arms that provided the initial acceleration and the shoulders sort of responded to that motion. They are pulled around instead of throwing the arms/hands out to the ball.

Does anyone else experience this? I wonder if a better feeling is the idea of actually trying to hit the ball with "square" shoulders at impact. I'd imagine it's going to feel like the arms are leading and will "pass" the torso at impact. The upper body, then, follows and is responding to being pulled around by the hands whipping the club through (?)

Erik

this quote from Kevin Shields really helped me.
Think down and around = good
Around then down = bad
and also facing the wall drill.

 

[spktho]

In the transition, the right hip is stationary-ish and rotates. The left hip rotates about the stationary right hip. Not difficult or extraordinary.

Golfie

Ooh, I like this ^^^.

 

[DCgolf]

I still find it interesting that many posts come through without ever talking about impact or the resulting ball flight. And they get immediate responses. That's a little like saying "your kinematic sequence on that shank was beautiful." There is only one criteria by which any and all moves are ultimately judged ; The .0004 seconds of collision. Sometimes when people call for a lesson they ask, "what do you teach?". Most likely not what I taught today.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I still find it interesting that many posts come through without ever talking about impact or the resulting ball flight. And they get immediate responses. That's a little like saying "your kinematic sequence on that shank was beautiful." There is only one criteria by which any and all moves are ultimately judged ; The .0004 seconds of collision. Sometimes when people call for a lesson they ask, "what do you teach?". Most likely not what I taught today.

I literally freeze on that question every time. What do you teach? Uh, um...golf?

 

[Todd Dugan]

To Erics' original post..................the clubhead wants to fall in-line with the hands. So, why not focus on swinginging the hands in the direction required of the clubhead for the intended ball flight? Hold a laser pointer in your hands to practice. Its quite easy and natural to produce the intended plane line direction. 99% of the time, the root cause of swinging too leftward is a "reactionary protection" from a clubface that is too open. I always fix that first. After that, moving the plane direction less leftward is easy.

 

[Erik_K]

To Erics' original post..................the clubhead wants to fall in-line with the hands. So, why not focus on swinginging the hands in the direction required of the clubhead for the intended ball flight? Hold a laser pointer in your hands to practice. Its quite easy and natural to produce the intended plane line direction. 99% of the time, the root cause of swinging too leftward is a "reactionary protection" from a clubface that is too open. I always fix that first. After that, moving the plane direction less leftward is easy.

I agree to a point, Todd. I know, for many people, the root cause of the problem is a face issue. However, I also believe the body, or some sequencing 'error' can still lead to bad shots or poor contact.

In my case I can tell you that usually one of two things happens:

1) face is wide open coming down & I usually slam it shut (rely on timing) or it stays open at impact

2) I can close the face (think twistaway) deep into the DS...BUT since the path is normally out to in, I can pull the ball (and this is no exaggeration) 70+ yards to the left

I guess this is a case of the dreaded two-way miss. Since I am usually steep coming down, I think the face being open on the DS is a last second attempt to shallow things out.

If you want I can send you some recent video to see what I am talking about...hands to ball transition, club steepening, very high hands at impact, poor hip action, and I stand up to make room --> likely something you've seen 1000x before. Now at my last range session, I did play with gripping the club closed and swinging out to the right. I have to confess there were no slices. There were some bad shots - some blocks and fat ones for sure. But overall the flight was relatively straight, or playable.

 

[spktho]

I agree to a point, Todd. I know, for many people, the root cause of the problem is a face issue. However, I also believe the body, or some sequencing 'error' can still lead to bad shots or poor contact.

In my case I can tell you that usually one of two things happens:

1) face is wide open coming down & I usually slam it shut (rely on timing) or it stays open at impact

2) I can close the face (think twistaway) deep into the DS...BUT since the path is normally out to in, I can pull the ball (and this is no exaggeration) 70+ yards to the left

I guess this is a case of the dreaded two-way miss. Since I am usually steep coming down, I think the face being open on the DS is a last second attempt to shallow things out.

If you want I can send you some recent video to see what I am talking about...hands to ball transition, club steepening, very high hands at impact, poor hip action, and I stand up to make room --> likely something you've seen 1000x before. Now at my last range session, I did play with gripping the club closed and swinging out to the right. I have to confess there were no slices. There were some bad shots - some blocks and fat ones for sure. But overall the flight was relatively straight, or playable.

Exactly what I'm doing. Remembered Kevin's "wipe the table" with the right hand and Michael Jacob's amount of right wrist bend in pro swings and worked on that early in the downswing with some success. Much easier with irons, very difficult with driver. But, when I did it correctly, it made getting the left arm vertical easier and actually videod myself hitting some balls with a bent right arm at impact while staying in a good golf posture. Hit a lot of cuts, but not too many pulls--which is the shot that has been killing me.

 

[Erik_K]

Exactly what I'm doing. Remembered Kevin's "wipe the table" with the right hand and Michael Jacob's amount of right wrist bend in pro swings and worked on that early in the downswing with some success. Much easier with irons, very difficult with driver. But, when I did it correctly, it made getting the left arm vertical easier and actually videod myself hitting some balls with a bent right arm at impact while staying in a good golf posture. Hit a lot of cuts, but not too many pulls--which is the shot that has been killing me.

How are you getting the left arm vertical? This is something that is apparent late in the DS or at impact, right? IMO for this to happen, the lower body needs to clear so the left arm can get "inside" where it was at address. Maybe another way of looking at is that your hands, basically, return to where they were at address. In my case my hands run away from my body and I tend to stand up at impact.

Erik

 

[coachwalls]

I agree to a point, Todd. I know, for many people, the root cause of the problem is a face issue. However, I also believe the body, or some sequencing 'error' can still lead to bad shots or poor contact.

In my case I can tell you that usually one of two things happens:

1) face is wide open coming down & I usually slam it shut (rely on timing) or it stays open at impact

2) I can close the face (think twistaway) deep into the DS...BUT since the path is normally out to in, I can pull the ball (and this is no exaggeration) 70+ yards to the left

I guess this is a case of the dreaded two-way miss. Since I am usually steep coming down, I think the face being open on the DS is a last second attempt to shallow things out.

If you want I can send you some recent video to see what I am talking about...hands to ball transition, club steepening, very high hands at impact, poor hip action, and I stand up to make room --> likely something you've seen 1000x before. Now at my last range session, I did play with gripping the club closed and swinging out to the right. I have to confess there were no slices. There were some bad shots - some blocks and fat ones for sure. But overall the flight was relatively straight, or playable.

Erik,

What I've learned about my swing is if I let the hips slide left at the top of the swing my sequence is bad. If my hips turn my sequence is good. Sliding equals arms and club stuck behind me with now way to swing left after impact. It also equals two way misses and inconsistent contact. Turning gives my arms and club all the room they need to make a free pass at the ball.

When you do the bounce the ball drill focus on the athletic feeling of your body movements and not so much on throwing. Feel how simple and free your swing feels when you just react to what you want to do instead of thinking about making a golf swing.

If you own the Softdraw video watch it again too. Brian does a great job explaining how easy and stress free sequencing can be in that video if you just react to the swing. I have played some really good golf using the softdraw pattern to hit fades. My brain couldn't get comfortable hitting draws for awhile so I just set up and swung the club like Brian teaches in softdraw but let myself hit fades. It's a very stress free way to play golf.

There's no easy answer to getting sequencing right for YOU. You will have to try different things or work with with an instructor to get it to work for you.

What kind of ball flight do you want?

Personally, if you can figure out how to come over the top a little and hit a consistent fade, your money. Lots of people have played some really good golf that way.

 

[spktho]

How are you getting the left arm vertical? This is something that is apparent late in the DS or at impact, right? IMO for this to happen, the lower body needs to clear so the left arm can get "inside" where it was at address. Maybe another way of looking at is that your hands, basically, return to where they were at address. In my case my hands run away from my body and I tend to stand up at impact.

Erik

It is still difficult to get the left arm vertical at about club last parallel. I have read a few times Kevin talk about "hitting yourself in the testicles" with the club, but never really thought too much about it. I was struggling at the range today and thought about what that meant. So I figured "what the hell" and literally tried to hit myself in the testicles with the but end of the club right from the top of the downswing and all I can say is WOW!

Out of the last 50 or so balls, none were pulled. Some pushes, a lot of draws, but no pulls. I'm definitely working on hitting myself in the testicles more

Seemed to have the effect of having to have the hips and shoulders more open at impact too. The club feels way behind where it normally does and I think I'm really feeling the tumble this time. Didn't take any video yet though.