questions about sequencing

[Erik_K]

Erik,

What I've learned about my swing is if I let the hips slide left at the top of the swing my sequence is bad. If my hips turn my sequence is good. Sliding equals arms and club stuck behind me with now way to swing left after impact. It also equals two way misses and inconsistent contact. Turning gives my arms and club all the room they need to make a free pass at the ball.

When you do the bounce the ball drill focus on the athletic feeling of your body movements and not so much on throwing. Feel how simple and free your swing feels when you just react to what you want to do instead of thinking about making a golf swing.

If you own the Softdraw video watch it again too. Brian does a great job explaining how easy and stress free sequencing can be in that video if you just react to the swing. I have played some really good golf using the softdraw pattern to hit fades. My brain couldn't get comfortable hitting draws for awhile so I just set up and swung the club like Brian teaches in softdraw but let myself hit fades. It's a very stress free way to play golf.

There's no easy answer to getting sequencing right for YOU. You will have to try different things or work with with an instructor to get it to work for you.

What kind of ball flight do you want?

Personally, if you can figure out how to come over the top a little and hit a consistent fade, your money. Lots of people have played some really good golf that way.

My problem may very well be rooted in the hips and I think one thing I need to do is "slide" but also keep the head back. That is to say, I need axis tilt. I have a big move into the ball (total body slide) and my hips tend to stay get square and stay that way into impact.

I'd like to play a push draw of some sort. I have no qualms with a fade and perhaps that flight is more compatible with my current swing. After some more thought I think some NSA therapy!

Erik

 

[coachwalls]

I'm just going to guess after reading your response but I bet we have very similar swings. It took over two years of watching NSA and hitting balls to get comfortable with hitting a shot that went right to left. I had hit an over the top slice for so long that my brain just wouldn't let my body hit a draw. I had a two way miss for a long time working with NSA. It almost made me quit the game to be honest about it. Not the video but my swing. I finally decided screw it, I'm just going to hit fades my entire life and all be damned if I didn't start hitting nice little draws.

The harder I worked at not coming over the top the more I came over the top. Someone smarter than me will have to explain that one but in my mind it came down to a change in my thought process that helped to change my sequencing and a change in my ball flight.

Softdraw is the video that really changed my game. If my swing gets way off I go back to that video. My ball flight now varies from day to day. It'll either be a softdraw or a slight push fade. The push fade is usually from a tempo that's to quick or from trying to hit it to hard. I don't worry to much about it and just try to play the shot I have in the bag for that day.

I decided to take a page out of Sam Sneads play book. If I start hooking it to much I'll start working on trying to play a fade. If I start fading it to much I start working on playing a draw. The softdraw pattern is always the starting point for me though no matter what ball flight I want. I guess being a Sam Snead and Freddy Couples fan kind of explains that attraction to that video though.

I don't remember if I had a point to this response or not. Just sharing some of the stuff I went through in hopes that it will help you.

 

[Erik_K]

I'm just going to guess after reading your response but I bet we have very similar swings. It took over two years of watching NSA and hitting balls to get comfortable with hitting a shot that went right to left. I had hit an over the top slice for so long that my brain just wouldn't let my body hit a draw. I had a two way miss for a long time working with NSA. It almost made me quit the game to be honest about it. Not the video but my swing. I finally decided screw it, I'm just going to hit fades my entire life and all be damned if I didn't start hitting nice little draws.

The harder I worked at not coming over the top the more I came over the top. Someone smarter than me will have to explain that one but in my mind it came down to a change in my thought process that helped to change my sequencing and a change in my ball flight.

Softdraw is the video that really changed my game. If my swing gets way off I go back to that video. My ball flight now varies from day to day. It'll either be a softdraw or a slight push fade. The push fade is usually from a tempo that's to quick or from trying to hit it to hard. I don't worry to much about it and just try to play the shot I have in the bag for that day.

I decided to take a page out of Sam Sneads play book. If I start hooking it to much I'll start working on trying to play a fade. If I start fading it to much I start working on playing a draw. The softdraw pattern is always the starting point for me though no matter what ball flight I want. I guess being a Sam Snead and Freddy Couples fan kind of explains that attraction to that video though.

I don't remember if I had a point to this response or not. Just sharing some of the stuff I went through in hopes that it will help you.

I hear you loud and clear! I have battled this steep swing for ages. The harder I try, the more I read, the more I think about it, the more I come OTT and/or make compensations to work with what I have.

Sometimes you need to go back to basics and at times there's a regression as you rid yourself of the bad habits.

Erik

 

[aa034321]

Regarding the idea of "turning" the hips vs "sliding"...this is a real key to improved ballstriking. My son is a HS sophomore and is becoming a decent player, i.e. he can break 80.

For a period of several weeks he was really struggling with inconsistent contact that went from toe shots to shanks. In video you could clearly see that he had an aggressive hip slide toward the target on the downswing, which isn't unusual for younger players as it feels "powerful" to them to use the hip slide, but it leads to early extension, standing up at impact, etc....

The little drill where you place the club across your body and work on coordinating the right shoulder movement with the left hip up and back movement helped a lot. Basically starting with slow swings concentrating only on the left hip moving southwest in the downswing. This will feel at first like a powerless move until you notice the ball is flying further with more compression.

 

[art]

I'm glad you brought this up. I cannot for the life of me reconcile "bump it back keep it back" with "clearing the left hip".

Unless you have some sort of congenital double jointed hip condition (and maybe this is why 99.999999% of us don't play this game on TV) how the heck can you keep anything held back, be it hips, lower back, upper back or shoulders, and still clear your left hip?

Adding to my confusion is the advice to unwind the downswing from the ground up, hips lead the hands which lead the clubhead, feel like the club is lagging way behind you, etc......and my pumpkin wants to explode.

So I guess my question is....are we simply talking about different strokes for different folks?

Dear aa034321,

I see from reading your previous posts that you have been gone from this site for almost 2 years, rejoining with a "Please Help This Swing" plea, 5-30-2012, from your last post 6-25-2010. I took the liberty to view your swings as posted several years ago. If you still swing like that today, if requested, I will be pleased to comment based on the science I have been uncovering, emphasizing what I have found to be the need for EVERY golfer to develop lower body, POSITIVE dynamic stability margin.

As background, I have been working hard to support the people interested in improving their golf swings for the past 5 years, now enjoying retirement, with time to spend, and have chosen THIS SITE to post much of my science-based findings.

If you simply 'click' your mouse on "art" from this response, it will provide you with the option to review my 200 or so posts since February of this year, which having reviewed your most recent posts, will answer several of your questions in what I have tried to provide, an objective, value added and non judgmental manner. Please review those appropriately titled, or if you need a short cut, Google, "Bumpy Back vs Diagonal Stance", for a link back to this site. Then please re ask any residual questions.

One last observation, with 2 Anti Summits, and many of us re-energized to provide a science base to at least a few listening professional instructors, I believe you will pleasantly surprised that much has changed here in the last 2 years.

art

 

[Svenster]

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate thread to ask these questions or if I should start a new thread but here goes.

art, I'm just wondering if your studies involve seeing the difference between moving the ball around in one's stance based on club selection (i.e. to accommodate a more 'sweeping' contact with driver vs. downward contact with irons) and using a "constant/static" ball position a la Nicklaus and others (e.g. ball one club length back of lead foot for all swings regardless of club used) as regards "dynamic stability" in a full swing.

The way I understand the "static" ball position concept is that the sweeping or downward strike of the ball is a result of widening or narrowing one's stance width whereas "moving the ball around" changes the strike of the ball due to where the ball is in your stance.

I confess that I've asked ball position questions on this forum before and the consensus seems to be "whatever works" and I'm ok with that but would really like to know what your take is on ball position esp. in relation to dynamic stability and of course "BBKIB" and also what you think would be the best approach (at least to begin with) for a novice golfer or even a long suffering high handicapper like moi.

Thanks in advance...Svenster

(added due to forgot to ask before) - On the topic of stance width and dynamic stability are there any benefits to keeping the stance width relatively the same regardless of club being used or could the "longer the club wider the stance" be a better option. This question sort of dovetails with the above one about ball position because there could be 4-"ish" scenarios: static ball position or moving ball position with same-ish stance width and static ball position or moving ball position with changing stance width.

When I ponder the above I can't help but think that if it's true that a full swing is a full swing regardless of what club is being used (and I'm not saying it is) is it possible that the stance width that gives one dynamic stability for that swing doesn't change much or at all?

Apologies in advance for what some might consider continuous punishment of a long deceased horse.

 

[aa034321]

Dear aa034321,

I see from reading your previous posts that you have been gone from this site for almost 2 years, rejoining with a "Please Help This Swing" plea, 5-30-2012, from your last post 6-25-2010. I took the liberty to view your swings as posted several years ago. If you still swing like that today, if requested, I will be pleased to comment based on the science I have been uncovering, emphasizing what I have found to be the need for EVERY golfer to develop lower body, POSITIVE dynamic stability margin.

As background, I have been working hard to support the people interested in improving their golf swings for the past 5 years, now enjoying retirement, with time to spend, and have chosen THIS SITE to post much of my science-based findings.

If you simply 'click' your mouse on "art" from this response, it will provide you with the option to review my 200 or so posts since February of this year, which having reviewed your most recent posts, will answer several of your questions in what I have tried to provide, an objective, value added and non judgmental manner. Please review those appropriately titled, or if you need a short cut, Google, "Bumpy Back vs Diagonal Stance", for a link back to this site. Then please re ask any residual questions.

One last observation, with 2 Anti Summits, and many of us re-energized to provide a science base to at least a few listening professional instructors, I believe you will pleasantly surprised that much has changed here in the last 2 years.

art

Hello Art,

I would definitely be interested in your comments for the last swing I posted. I have what I would term severe flexibility issues in both the lower and upper body so I'm interested in my potential to follow your prescription for lower body movement.

I had previously read through the entire bumpy back vs diagonal thread and while I have at least a basic grasp of the concept, I'm curious if this is compatible with or still a variation of lower body leads the upper body or if that theory is now being dis-proven.

Thanks for your response and contributions to the board.

 

[art]

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate thread to ask these questions or if I should start a new thread but here goes.

art, I'm just wondering if your studies involve seeing the difference between moving the ball around in one's stance based on club selection (i.e. to accommodate a more 'sweeping' contact with driver vs. downward contact with irons) and using a "constant/static" ball position a la Nicklaus and others (e.g. ball one club length back of lead foot for all swings regardless of club used) as regards "dynamic stability" in a full swing.

The way I understand the "static" ball position concept is that the sweeping or downward strike of the ball is a result of widening or narrowing one's stance width whereas "moving the ball around" changes the strike of the ball due to where the ball is in your stance.

I confess that I've asked ball position questions on this forum before and the consensus seems to be "whatever works" and I'm ok with that but would really like to know what your take is on ball position esp. in relation to dynamic stability and of course "BBKIB" and also what you think would be the best approach (at least to begin with) for a novice golfer or even a long suffering high handicapper like moi.

Thanks in advance...Svenster

Dear Svenster, (AND ALL OTHERS READING THESE RESPONSES),

THIS WILL BE A BIT LONG, SORRY.

It REALLY PAINS ME to read how many, especially those responding on this thread and struggling to improve, some for 2 years, still looking for consistency and improvement, WITHOUT FIRST ADDRESSING TEMPO AND BALANCE.

For those of you that already have these characteristics, IMO, it is possible to proceed to the next steps, but for those of us that do not have these characteristics, WE MUST IMPROVE THESE AREAS BEFORE PROCEEDING.

As background, I have personally been involved with research regarding the swings of 150 people with less than 10% of them already consistent and stable enough to improve with their chosen instructors more detailed lessons regarding the release and other ball shaping area.The reason I know, is because I first suggested some small changes , usually in their set up, that resulted in ALL CASES, in increased distance, decreased dispersion, and better consistency as measured on launch monitors, but mostly by observation, BUT ALWAYS THE GOLFERS ASSESSMENT, not mine. I attribute these improvements to better tempo and balance.

In your case, Svenster regarding the relative position of the ball, for each club, I suggest the following, AFTER FIRST, ESTABLISHING AND MEETING THE HIGHEST REQUIREMENTS OF TEMPO AND STABILITY.

Since each club is a different length, and a ONE INCH difference in your bodies position relative to the ball can create UNACCEPTABLE balance, and then tempo disturbances, IMO, and studies, I find it MANDATORY TO LET THE BODY, YOUR BODY, OPTIMIZE this position relationship for EVERY SWING, AND EVERY CLUB, Especially on the golf course, where there are many uneven lies, in all directions.

So, for the short BUT FULL SWING distances first, where a discernible divot will be taken, just set up maybe 6 inches DIRECTLY BEHIND the ball and target line, ADDRESS A 'VIRTUAL' BALL IN THAT LOCATION, and before taking a practice swing do what IMO ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT MOVES IN GOLF. Still addressing the 'virtual' ball ESTABLISH YOUR DYNAMIC BALANCE (FOR ME BBKIB, AND i HOPE SOME DAY FOR ALL GOLFERS) THEN, 'WAGGLE AND MOVE YOUR FEET ONE AT A TIME UNTIL YOUR BODY TELLS YOU TO STOP. That's right, no pre-established distance from the ball, just a 'body optimized' exercise which you will see, will be different depending on the lie.

Just one more thing to do before hitting the shot, and that is, with a dynamically stable, and body-optimized distance from the 'virtual' ball, take a full power dress rehearsal swing, taking a representative divot, and if it starts right in front of the position of both the 'virtual' and real ball, move those 6 inches up to the ball, re-establish your balance and dynamic stability, optimize the distance to the real ball and WITH CONFIDENCE, hit the real shot.

If the divot is not in front of the ball, just adjust you body position laterally, along the target line, and again, re-establish dynamic balance and body-optimized position and then hit the shot. In some instances of challenging lies, it may take several 'rehearsal swings' to establish the correct divot location, ALL PERFECTLY ALLOWABLE in the rules of golf.

Sounds, and reads like a lot to do, but soon, it will become a routine with the reward of better consistency in the swing and MOST IMPORTANTLY, IN THE RESULT..

The science-based elements of this lengthy routine addresses the best way I have found to MINIMIZE the errors GUARANTEED to develop if distance to the ball, and lower body dynamic balance issues ARE LEFT TO ROUTINES THAT ARE PRE-DETERMINED AND FIXED, AS IS USUALLY THE STANDARD PRACTICE.

Let's stop here and let you 'test drive' this routine, and if you wish, I will complete the description for the driver, and other clubs.

Respectfully,
art.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

some good gems in this thread.

 

[GeoffDickson]

this quote from Kevin Shields really helped me.
Think down and around = good
Around then down = bad
and also facing the wall drill.

That's a great swing thought. I am putting it into play immediately. I have acquired a big OTT move courtesy of learning how to drop the right should through impact (i.e. preserving the right side bend and primary axis tilt) BUT without a lateral shift...When I bump (lateral shift), Dump (drop the arms) and then turn, I hit the ball much, much better. IMHO, 'down and around' is the same idea.

Could you elaborate on facing the wall drill?

 

[art]

Hello Art,

I would definitely be interested in your comments for the last swing I posted. I have what I would term severe flexibility issues in both the lower and upper body so I'm interested in my potential to follow your prescription for lower body movement.

I had previously read through the entire bumpy back vs diagonal thread and while I have at least a basic grasp of the concept, I'm curious if this is compatible with or still a variation of lower body leads the upper body or if that theory is now being dis-proven.

Thanks for your response and contributions to the board.

Dear aa034321,

Thanks for the speedy reply, I appreciate the interest and the questions. It shows me that even with 200 quite lengthy responses to the questions of others, I have failed to communicate fully.

I looked at, but have had a difficult time seeing much from your videos as there are no simple replay, or frame by frame capabilities. From what I can see, and remember by replaying them thru the 'history' function, it looks like you have an ideal 'starting point' for the 10% distance, and up to 50% dispersion reductions being realized by most golfers tested to date.

You will have to be the judge of the consistency of your TEMPO AND RHYTHM by counting the frames of 5-10 videos using the frame by frame function, and "Tour Tempo" as a guide. I think from what I can see, this area looks OK to proceed to establishing lower body dynamic stability MARGIN. Margin, because you like most golfers I have tested will WITH BETTER BALANCE, immediately want to exceed even the expected 10% distance improvement, and therefore need the extra stability. I have VERY often seen results from THE FIRST BALL HIT after establishing increased stability, then in many cases, the very next swing is faster, out of tempo all because the desire was now feeling better balanced, it was 'long drive time'.

So, I encourage you to try BBKIB, and in your case I will expand a little on 'keep it back'.

As I recall, in several of your earlier posts, and even above, you noted, " I'm curious if this is compatible with or still a variation of lower body leads the upper body or if that theory is now being dis-proven".

ALL of my research and work has been 'zero-based', that is NOT dependent on any previous work, or 'reverse engineered' etc. I had NO pre-determined bias as to how or how fast should the lower body rotate. I simply required the motion to start, AND REMAIN DYNAMICALLY BALANCED throughout the explosive transition and downswing.

After much work involving assessing the internal and external (ground reaction) forces and torques, it became VERY evident from the basic mass properties (weight, moment of inertia etc) that the lower body had a much different job to do other than spin fast and early. In fact, to retain the dynamic stability required for a golfers best swings, the lower body has to turn slower, and the rear hip JOINT, has to rotate slower than the forward hip JOINT. You may want to Google hip joint "images" to get a better visualization of the ball and socket, and geometry of these joints, they can, and do rotate at different angular rates as the 'instantaneous screw axis' of the pelvis moves during the transition and downswing.

This is a CRUCIAL area and the KIB (keep it back) characteristic is just an initial guideline recognizing FULLY that tyhe lead hip movement, and the rotational energy being expended will certainly 'pull' the rear hip along, and it will rotate counterclockwise (for a right handed swing), following the lead hip from down swing to follow-thru.

The starting/set-up position with the rear hip rotated clockwise (BB), should allow the arms to arrive at impact, without having to detour around the rear hip which should have remaind back (KIB), at least for a while.

Try this please, and PM some videos if that is OK with Brian et al. If not, and you have access to a Trackman or FlightScope, 10 swings your way, and 10 with BBKIB for comparison woud be appreciated .

Appreciatively,
art

 

[spktho]

Thanks for this thread in helping synthesize some of the various information about the golf swing. I understood the swing sequencing angular velocities as presented from AMM 3d data on pro golfers shows the order as hips, torso, arms/hands, club head but, could never really hit a good shot with just that knowledge. Over the past couple of days I have developed what I think is a better swing using the above sequencing and being able to hit the decent shots not too far off line. As you probably have read earlier in this thread, I suffer from pulls predominantly. The pulls for me come from the torso being too early in the sequence causing an ott and then subsequent backing the shaft up while standing the body up. I knew this, but couldn't figure a good way to correct it...until, I believe, the last couple of days.

So, with the help of the information presented on this site--I will try to give credit where credit is due--I will attempt to explain my own findings and feels that have helped so far. It is most difficult for me to do with the driver, so this is what I'm working on using the driver with good results. When I would switch to irons, the results were very good:

The first thing I began working on was getting the hand path more vertical from the top of the back swing. That went ok but with a huge loss in distance and not too much more with vertical left arm at club last parallel. I then finally understood what Kevin was talking about when he says to "hit your self in the testicles" with the club. The left arm got more vertical, but I still had to stand up with the body into impact to fit the club in.

Then I worked on what art has been talking about with BBKIB and was very succinctly summarized by golfie earlier in this thread. So, I began doing the "pump" drill emphasizing two things. 1. trying to hit myself in the 'nutz' from the top and 2. opening up or externally rotating the left hip while leaving the right hip behind to just be pulled around at some point in the swing. The results were better, but I really had to try to keep the torso out of it still because I would still hit a big pull on occasion.

The last part I worked on with the above was to allow the club to be behind more in the swing as I remember Virtuoso once talking about. This seemed to help slow the torso in the sequence and allowed the hips to get more open while the hands were in with a more vertical hand path while minimizing me having to stand up to fit the club in as I feel the club head go out to the ball and as Brian and art has pointed out before, the left shoulder complex goes more up throwing the drunk off and not around.

So far my main feel is exactly that pump drill I mentioned earlier emphasizing the above feels and the swing on video looks much better and, so far the ball flight is very promising. Anyway, I feel as though it's starting to come together better for me and just wanted to share in the hopes that it would help other ott, back the shaft up, stand up, closed hip guys trying to fit the club into impact.

 

[Svenster]

Dear Svenster, (AND ALL OTHERS READING THESE RESPONSES),

THIS WILL BE A BIT LONG, SORRY.

It REALLY PAINS ME to read how many, especially those responding on this thread and struggling to improve, some for 2 years, still looking for consistency and improvement, WITHOUT FIRST ADDRESSING TEMPO AND BALANCE.

For those of you that already have these characteristics, IMO, it is possible to proceed to the next steps, but for those of us that do not have these characteristics, WE MUST IMPROVE THESE AREAS BEFORE PROCEEDING.

As background, I have personally been involved with research regarding the swings of 150 people with less than 10% of them already consistent and stable enough to improve with their chosen instructors more detailed lessons regarding the release and other ball shaping area.The reason I know, is because I first suggested some small changes , usually in their set up, that resulted in ALL CASES, in increased distance, decreased dispersion, and better consistency as measured on launch monitors, but mostly by observation, BUT ALWAYS THE GOLFERS ASSESSMENT, not mine. I attribute these improvements to better tempo and balance.

In your case, Svenster regarding the relative position of the ball, for each club, I suggest the following, AFTER FIRST, ESTABLISHING AND MEETING THE HIGHEST REQUIREMENTS OF TEMPO AND STABILITY.

Since each club is a different length, and a ONE INCH difference in your bodies position relative to the ball can create UNACCEPTABLE balance, and then tempo disturbances, IMO, and studies, I find it MANDATORY TO LET THE BODY, YOUR BODY, OPTIMIZE this position relationship for EVERY SWING, AND EVERY CLUB, Especially on the golf course, where there are many uneven lies, in all directions.

So, for the short BUT FULL SWING distances first, where a discernible divot will be taken, just set up maybe 6 inches DIRECTLY BEHIND the ball and target line, ADDRESS A 'VIRTUAL' BALL IN THAT LOCATION, and before taking a practice swing do what IMO ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT MOVES IN GOLF. Still addressing the 'virtual' ball ESTABLISH YOUR DYNAMIC BALANCE (FOR ME BBKIB, AND i HOPE SOME DAY FOR ALL GOLFERS) THEN, 'WAGGLE AND MOVE YOUR FEET ONE AT A TIME UNTIL YOUR BODY TELLS YOU TO STOP. That's right, no pre-established distance from the ball, just a 'body optimized' exercise which you will see, will be different depending on the lie.

Just one more thing to do before hitting the shot, and that is, with a dynamically stable, and body-optimized distance from the 'virtual' ball, take a full power dress rehearsal swing, taking a representative divot, and if it starts right in front of the position of both the 'virtual' and real ball, move those 6 inches up to the ball, re-establish your balance and dynamic stability, optimize the distance to the real ball and WITH CONFIDENCE, hit the real shot.

If the divot is not in front of the ball, just adjust you body position laterally, along the target line, and again, re-establish dynamic balance and body-optimized position and then hit the shot. In some instances of challenging lies, it may take several 'rehearsal swings' to establish the correct divot location, ALL PERFECTLY ALLOWABLE in the rules of golf.

Sounds, and reads like a lot to do, but soon, it will become a routine with the reward of better consistency in the swing and MOST IMPORTANTLY, IN THE RESULT..

The science-based elements of this lengthy routine addresses the best way I have found to MINIMIZE the errors GUARANTEED to develop if distance to the ball, and lower body dynamic balance issues ARE LEFT TO ROUTINES THAT ARE PRE-DETERMINED AND FIXED, AS IS USUALLY THE STANDARD PRACTICE.

Let's stop here and let you 'test drive' this routine, and if you wish, I will complete the description for the driver, and other clubs.

Respectfully,
art.

art, thanks a lot for your detailed response. It was so good that it pretty much answered my "follow up" question at the same time.

I'll use your pre-shot routine with my irons tomorrow at the range and during my round and will definitely report back on my results.

I might as well say it now that I'd also appreciate reading your descriptions for driver, fairway woods and hybrids. I think I have an idea of what you may say for those clubs but I'd sure rather hear it from you first as the possibility of me getting it exactly "bass-ackwards" on my own can never be discounted.

Thanks again, art. I'm not the first and I won't be the last to say that your input in the forum is greatly appreciated, especially when you take the time to respond to questions that some here might think are too "rookie".

 

[hp12c]

That's a great swing thought. I am putting it into play immediately. I have acquired a big OTT move courtesy of learning how to drop the right should through impact (i.e. preserving the right side bend and primary axis tilt) BUT without a lateral shift...When I bump (lateral shift), Dump (drop the arms) and then turn, I hit the ball much, much better. IMHO, 'down and around' is the same idea.

Could you elaborate on facing the wall drill?

Sure Geoff her is what I wrote on the backing up the shaft thread,

So I think I do that backing up the shaft the reason I say that is what Keving said about missing the vertical componant in the 1st stage of the DS. So I did this I went to a vertical wall, ah wait most walls are vertical, u know what I mean, I stood facing the wall real close, took my golf stance and my head almost touching the wall took my wedge and put it horizontal to the ground with the grip facing the target went to th top of my BS and when I started my DS slow I almost hit the wall went back up and started the DS again, slow, and wow! talk about vertical drop, what an eye opener. I though I was doing the vertical hand path not even close, I did this several times to really feel the positions. Now I wanna go smack some balls to see what happens.

Hope it help u as much as helped me.

 

[Svenster]

art, thanks a lot for your detailed response. It was so good that it pretty much answered my "follow up" question at the same time.

I'll use your pre-shot routine with my irons tomorrow at the range and during my round and will definitely report back on my results.

I might as well say it now that I'd also appreciate reading your descriptions for driver, fairway woods and hybrids. I think I have an idea of what you may say for those clubs but I'd sure rather hear it from you first as the possibility of me getting it exactly "bass-ackwards" on my own can never be discounted.

Thanks again, art. I'm not the first and I won't be the last to say that your input in the forum is greatly appreciated, especially when you take the time to respond to questions that some here might think are too "rookie".

Excuse the "bump" and me re-quoting my own post, just trying to maintain continuity.

Played a round yesterday using "BBKIB" and art's suggested pre-shot routine for irons. Happy to report that I came away very satisfied with my iron play. I also used "BBKIB" for my driver, FW and hybrid shots and while I'm definitely seeing improvements to my shots I'm still fighting slices, esp. with the driver.

art, I'd still love to hear your description of pre-shot routines for the other clubs viz. ball position but while I'm at it I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you if "BBKIB" should also work for closed or open stances, if one feels the need to do it when trying to hit a draw or fade. I find that one way for me to combat my natural slice with a driver is to set up with some might say an exaggerated closed stance. I realize it's a home made "work around" in my case but I was wondering if "BBKIB" is even possible if one is set up with their rear hip already back due to a closed stance, and conversely if their rear hip is open "on purpose". Thanks in advance, looking forward to your reply (at your leisure of course).

 

[DCgolf]

I am someone who has, more or less, a classic OTT looking type move down into the ball. My shoulders are perhaps too active too early and the hands sort of move out to the ball, I am wondering if a better feeling, for me, is to resist the shoulders opening on the DS.

When I had a lesson with Kevin Shields one of things that I felt was a "smallness" to the golf swing. The term we coined was "quiet chest." That is to say it was the arms that provided the initial acceleration and the shoulders sort of responded to that motion. They are pulled around instead of throwing the arms/hands out to the ball.

Does anyone else experience this? I wonder if a better feeling is the idea of actually trying to hit the ball with "square" shoulders at impact. I'd imagine it's going to feel like the arms are leading and will "pass" the torso at impact. The upper body, then, follows and is responding to being pulled around by the hands whipping the club through (?)

Erik

Erik what mis-hits does this alleged over the top move cause you to hit? Curious to see what Trackman numbers have confirmed this feeling. Have you tried deliberately hooking the ball for a period of time? I have found this to be a deterrent to an early shoulder commitment. Or if you truly do commit early, then back up or stall you can get good trackman numbers from a move you cannot be consistent with. If you follow me...I have a fine player who commits early, stalls, backs up a bit and shows pretty good numbers.