questions from me about the D-plane (and new fun facts by Brian Manzella on p.3)

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golfdad

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ok, bear with me if this is too elementary, but better ask now and here before i become an older fool.:)

first allow me to summarize a bit so you guys know where i am at, right or wrong.

i will state some of my understanding in a broader sense for illustration purpose, so it may not be technically exact or even correct.

let's look at an iron shot. with the downward strike, due to the incline angle, a perfectly lined up shot will not go straight, even though face and path are on target. it will go right. see, right here, i am already confused. does it go to the right straight or curved? does the body sense that and end up hooking the ball to prevent the rightward flight, so it ends up to the left? is this one reason we develop hooking tendency?

now, to correct this problem, i have read that you should aim left (how much depends on the degree or distance?) and swing the same way. my question here is that: does the ball end up on the correct target by way of a straight shot or a curved shot?

final dumb question: instead of changing the alignnment to correct this d-plane issue, what happens if we just align the club face accordingly but keep the original body alignment?

help! :eek: haha!
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Put this in your head and let it incubate, i bet it will help you tremendously with the path part:

Swing LEFT ENOUGH to "neutral-out" how much DOWN you are hitting it.

Once you get that, i'll give you the nugget on the club face :)
 
natep

natep

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Did you watch this video?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepMzddHpas[/media]

Because the plane is on an incline (think of a hula-hoop at a ~45* angle), if you hit down on the ball you are also swinging to the right of where you would be if you hit the ball at the true bottom of the arc. If you could hit the ball at the very bottom of the arc you could aim straight at the target and hit a straight shot. But since you're hitting down and therefore swinging slightly right, you would have to square the face to the arc to hit a straight shot. So a straight shot would go right of where the bottom of the arc is aimed.
 
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cwdlaw223

New
Jim -

What's the other nugget for the clubface?

I'm saving these two.

FYI - I don't know how my people I've emailed Brian's video to on YouTube. Best one ever (IMO)! It sets the groundwork for all learning and without this frame of reference in ones brain it's very hard for someone to understand how to control the ball.
 
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SteveT

Guest
golfdad .... you should be also asking about the tilt of the ball spin axis, because that will define the horizontal curvature of the shot.

On occasion, I too get confused trying to resolve the target line to the club path to the clubface 'normal ... and then adding in for the aerodynamic lift .... sheesh .... for the good ol' days of the Nine Ball Path Flight Law and blissful ignorance ....!!!!!
 
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golfdad

New
yes, i have seen brian's tape, and jim and natep,,what you have written i do understand. perhaps i am asking what steve was talkinging about. or perhaps not:) but i am still curious to know the answers to my questions.

is it really the case that prior to this validation from trackman, that really good players tend to iron shots to the right and driver shots to the left?

i did read somewhere about hogan adjusting his stance "correctly" long ago,,,but do others, prior to trackman data, also do that?
 
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savydan

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Looking forward to Jim's face nugget also.

In the mean time, keep 2 things in mind:

1. In order for the ball to go straight at the target with no curve, both the face and the path must be pointing at the target at impact.

2. We often talk about two paths:

A. The path at lowpoint. (Arbitrary, but where the golfer "feels" the path.)
B. The path at impact. (What the ball cares about.)

Before lowpoint, the path at impact is more right of the lowpoint path.
After lowpoint, the path at impact is more left of the lowpoint path.
 
duckjr78

duckjr78

New
Jim Kobylinski said:
Put this in your head and let it incubate, i bet it will help you tremendously with the path part:

Swing LEFT ENOUGH to "neutral-out" how much DOWN you are hitting it.

Once you get that, i'll give you the nugget on the club face :)
Click to expand...

I'm very excited to hear this next nugget. I've got the path part, but for the life of me, I can't figure out where to aim the clubface. FWIW, my shots almost always start at the final target and then curve the way & amount I was planning.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
The other nugget about club face is this:

We all *should* know that the ball will curve either way when the club face is closed/open to the path you swung on correct? So even if your club face is 2* open and your path is 4* inside out the ball is going to start slightly right and draw because the club face is 2* closed to the path.

BUT

The main thing you have to understand is that the above applies to the TRUE PATH after you factor in THE DOWN.

----------------------------------

So if your club face is 2* open, the path is 4* inside out and your are hitting down 3*, your true path is much further right than just 4* which will create the "real" ballflight.

So just always remember, swing left enough to counter the down and get the club face to be where it needs to be for the TRUE path and not just the 2D path.
 
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bax1865

New
why is the assumption always that if you hit down then you must be swinging out to the right? Is it not possible to hit down and have a HSP of 0*? Just asking......don't shoot me!
 
D

dannyc

New
golfdad said:
ok, bear with me if this is too elementary, but better ask now and here before i become an older fool.:)

first allow me to summarize a bit so you guys know where i am at, right or wrong.

i will state some of my understanding in a broader sense for illustration purpose, so it may not be technically exact or even correct.

let's look at an iron shot. with the downward strike, due to the incline angle, a perfectly lined up shot will not go straight, even though face and path are on target. it will go right. see, right here, i am already confused. does it go to the right straight or curved? does the body sense that and end up hooking the ball to prevent the rightward flight, so it ends up to the left? is this one reason we develop hooking tendency?
Click to expand...
it depends what you mean by "path." if you are taking about "true path" (which accounts for the "down") the ball will go straight. if by "path" you mean hsp (swing direction), it won't.
the ball is going to start somewhere between the true path and the clubface. a "perfectly" lined up iron shot (clubface at target and hsp [swing direction] at target) will start a little right (b/c of downward strike has the true path to the right) and curve left because the face is pointing more left (it's at the target) than the true path.
golfdad said:
now, to correct this problem, i have read that you should aim left (how much depends on the degree or distance?) and swing the same way. my question here is that: does the ball end up on the correct target by way of a straight shot or a curved shot?
Click to expand...
depends on degree of "down." ends up at the target by way of a straight shot. you are only aiming your swing direction left - clubface stays at target.

golfdad said:
final dumb question: instead of changing the alignnment to correct this d-plane issue, what happens if we just align the club face accordingly but keep the original body alignment?

help! :eek: haha!
Click to expand...
if your are hitting down on the ball and the swing direction is at the target, the only "straight" (no curve) shot you can hit is a push.
 
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lookingtolearn

New
bax1865 said:
why is the assumption always that if you hit down then you must be swinging out to the right? Is it not possible to hit down and have a HSP of 0*? Just asking......don't shoot me!
Click to expand...

If you hit down, it doesn't mean you must be swinging out to the right. It means your true path will be farther right than your plane line. You can hit down and have a HSP of 0, but your resultant path will be out to the right.
 
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golfdad

New
thanks for the responses, start to make more sense.

here is one more question based on this video. if this robot is hitting up on a driver, you think the ball will consistently go to the left?

i wonder if the robot operator scratches his head wondering why...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxVEXFjal1I&feature=related[/media]
 
natep

natep

New
If the face is square to the path, yes.

One thing to keep in mind is that the parameters of the tour pros swingpaths are approx. +6 to -6. Most fall in between these parameters.

When a second hand ticks one second on a clock, that's six degrees. So the variation in swing path for successful players lies between two ticks of a second hand on a clock. That's not very much.

See this chart for aiming considerations:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...2883-so-you-want-numbers-ive-got-numbers.html
 
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Ringer

New
First as you are striking downward on the ball you likely have a clubface that is slightly open.

Second, since the club is still going down it is also likely still going out.

That is assuming your "low point" is going directly at the target with both the clubface and clubhead direction.

Something else to consider, at SOME point all swings have the path square to the target. The ball simply must be placed at the appropriate spot along the path so that it is square to the target. The clubface is also square to the target at SOME point but not necessarily at the same time the path is square. Again, the ball just needs to be placed at that point where the clubface is square.
 
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wulsy

New
Ringer said:
Second, since the club is still going down it is also likely still going out.
That is assuming your "low point" is going directly at the target with both the clubface and clubhead direction.
Click to expand...

LIKELY=Possessing or displaying the qualities or characteristics that make something probable.
ASSUME:To take for granted; suppose.

Is this something that has been forgotten in the atmosphere of reverence to the D-Plane. The club can theoretically be moving down without moving out, can it not?
 
ZAP

ZAP

New
"Atmosphere of Reverence"?

Never heard it put that way but I think D plane is a pretty good model for understanding why the ball does what it does. I have not nor do I have plans for building an altar to the D Plane in my basement. lol
 
natep

natep

New
wulsy said:
The club can theoretically be moving down without moving out, can it not?
Click to expand...

Only if you were swinging on a perfectly vertical swing plane, 90* to the ground.

That's why you have to aim left, so that when you are swinging down, you are not swinging out to the right of the target, but right at it.
 
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