Raising the left heel

[Lifter]

According to Haney, Tiger made some changes on his own that he did not agree with. Tiger also supposedly insisted on certain things that limited Hank's options. He may have been at the extent of his own abilities with Tiger at a certain point.

If you taught Tiger Woods, I'm not sure you can get away with blaming the student. No matter what the circumstances were.

 

[natep]

I thought I read somewhere that Tiger once said that he only listens to and applies certain % of things that a swing coach tells him, and that he ignores whatever he doesnt agree with or think is correct.

 

[Bigwill]

I've read something like that before, from Vijay. I think that if you're working out your swing on your own, and you understand it well enough to know what does and doesn't work for you, this is the right philosophy to have.

 

[lia41985]

“The coaches are telling golfers how to swing and play. Let the players learn to play, if they are going to be good players, they have to learn by mostly themselves. Bobby Jones told me when he learned to correct himself, to do it himself, that’s when he said he became a good player. I sort of lived with what Jones did, I learned to do it myself, any teacher was just to assist me in my own judgment.”

--Jack Nicklaus, Golf's Great Players

 

[Lifter]

--Jack Nicklaus, Golf's Great Players

In my opinion this quote may obscure more than it enlightens. We know that Nicklaus went through a massive overhaul of his swing in the late 70's / early 80's. By the mid-80's, his swing looked nothing like his swing from the 60's. And I bet Nicklaus was not the primary architect / director of those changes. I think Nicklaus' swing change history as he aged is very important context for the Tiger swing change criticizers to keep in mind.

Maybe someone on the forum with more knowledge of this subject could provide some insight of how Nicklaus went through this overhaul.

 

[rogerdodger]

Jack Nicklaus's changes in 1980 were nowhere near the same as Woods changes with Haney or Foley. Jack put out a very good book detailing the changes in the early 1980's. His problem in the late 1970's involved swinging too steeply with the arms and club, and failing to release the clubhead as he had done at his best. (his words) He tended to block the ball. His book and articles in golf digest in 1980 detailed the changes. He set his head at address more in the middle of his stance, not off the right leg. He stood taller to the ball, not as bent over from the hips. He tried to take his hands back to the inside more, with a deeper backswing in his terms. He certainly was nowhere near as flat as Woods has become in the backswing. On the downswing, he let his left knee straighten thru impact more to allow him to sling the club. In all, his swing did not change as significantly as Woods, his teacher Jack Grout had told him he was losing his timing due to his not pivoting fully. Nicklaus was not a practicer, from September to January, he did not pick up a club typically. Grout introduced the swing changes in January, he won the US Open in June, with the PGA to follow that year. In 1986, he wrote of changing again, swinging more upright, reaching for the sky on the backswing and follow through. From 1970-1986, there is little real change to his swing. Prior to 1970 it looked different because he weighed forty pounds more. I think Woods changes thru the years have been more significant than any player in history that was not hit by a bus.

 

[birly-shirly]

I thought I read somewhere that Tiger once said that he only listens to and applies certain % of things that a swing coach tells him, and that he ignores whatever he doesnt agree with or think is correct.

That's quite funny. Because I read Hank say that ever since he learnt that people only take in about 10% from what you say, he makes a point of saying everything 10 times.

 

[Brian Manzella]

First of all, "dwurzer" is a top golf educator and very well read. Hope he explains the why.

Jack Nicklaus Swing Evolution:

Swing when he went out on tour—Well behind the ball, more trigger delay, more axis tilt through and past impact and more forward lean at impact.

Swing adjusted by watching other tour players—Almost left leaning at the top, but still with too much of the former release point and lean to make the left lean work. (mini slump occurred)

The centered, more sweep release swing—His playing prime, not as left lean as the last one, but with perfectly matched up release and lack of over forward lean.

Over-cooked, too set-up behind it, not as deep backswing, not enough lower body speed swing—Sort of a cartoon version of the last one.

The deeper rounder green shirt red pants swing—There is a book with 100000 pictures of it.

The 1986 Masters version of the last one—set up a bit taller, look for the differences in the top of the backswing body as well.

Everything after his last Masters run....

 

[Lifter]

First of all, "dwurzer" is a top golf educator and very well read. Hope he explains the why.

Jack Nicklaus Swing Evolution:

Swing when he went out on tour—Well behind the ball, more trigger delay, more axis tilt through and past impact and more forward lean at impact.

Swing adjusted by watching other tour players—Almost left leaning at the top, but still with too much of the former release point and lean to make the left lean work. (mini slump occurred)

The centered, more sweep release swing—His playing prime, not as left lean as the last one, but with perfectly matched up release and lack of over forward lean.

Over-cooked, too set-up behind it, not as deep backswing, not enough lower body speed swing—Sort of a cartoon version of the last one.

The deeper rounder green shirt red pants swing—There is a book with 100000 pictures of it.

The 1986 Masters version of the last one—set up a bit taller, look for the differences in the top of the backswing body as well.

Everything after his last Masters run....

Huh. So would you agree with rogerdodger that Tiger's swing changes have been much more drastic than Nicklaus' over the years?

 

[counterfall]

I thought I read somewhere that Tiger once said that he only listens to and applies certain % of things that a swing coach tells him, and that he ignores whatever he doesnt agree with or think is correct.

I agree with this until you find someone who wants to make drastic overhauls to the existing swing over and over again. After a certain point you have to question that person's ability to judge what should or should not apply to his swing. For instance, I bet that someone told Tiger to stop snapping his knee so aggressively through impact once he started having knee issues. He sure didn't listen probably because it wasn't a swing change HE saw as necessary right up to the point of a major knee surgery.

Look, Tiger is in control of his swing to the extent that if he sees or feels something that he wants to change (even if it really should be left alone), I am not sure there is anyone that could convince him otherwise. It seems that he likes the 'process' and challenge of going through a swing change. It is almost as if the more drastic the better. It's kind of narcissistic in a way (and that would fit right into his psychological profile).

 

[lia41985]

It's kind of narcissistic in a way (and that would fit right into his psychological profile).

I'm better (than you/than I was), therefore I am. Seems right.

 

[JesseV]

Nicklaus lifted left heel, Tom Watson and many many other great players lifted their left heel.

I was taught not to lift the left heel, after much research I am starting to lift the left heel and feel that I get much better rotation of shoulders and hips during my back swing. Probably trying to keep left heel flat has caused more harm to my swing and progress then almost any other thing I've been taught.

A little about me, 49, 3 lower back surgeries, limited hip and low back flexibility, I think lifting the left heel helps me when I remember to do do it. I just started last week so I have top reprogram this in to a revamped swing.

 

[birdie_man]

Two of the best things Perez says are:

"He use to play to win, left nothing in the bag and focused on scoring. His attitude was, "F...K the knee, I'm winning this tournament and we'll worry about the knee later". Not a bad approach if your goal is to be the greatest ever."

And:

"[Dean] Smith will go down in history as the only man that ever stopped Michael Jordan. The analogy here is that trying to restrict Tiger's lower body motion would be the equivalent of what Smith did to Jordan."

Now his knee might be...well...busted for life...

Mahan is more behind it than Tiger has been, no? Looks like a flat shoulder turn to me. (noooo???) Whatever he is doing is working for him. Tiger...not so far...