Release – 2

[dbl]

dbl, I don't understand your response. the force is the same, the duration of the force, (or work done) is different in Mandrin's two examples. I don't believe that you can increase your force just because you decide that you want to apply it for a shorter period of time, (considering obviously that we are talking about golf swing durations). If you want to feel efficient and lose more than 25% of your yardage then go ahead. I don't have that luxury.

Jim S.

Whether or not you can increase your force (and let's say you can't), for the given force and the parameters, the work input varied: 232 joules compared to 92 joules. So as a minimum, if you can't use your available power in some other good way in the stroke, you can at least walk up and down more hills, or have energy available later in the round. My own thought is that you would choose the more efficient model and then find extra ways to input more work beneficially.

Outside of using the extra power IN this particular stroke as is, perhaps you could use a longer shaft. Etc, etc, but at least you have more possibilities.

ETA: There are other force and torque inputs in the swing besides the F force in that model, so, again, there can be energy available for other places in the golf stoke.

 

[nmgolfer]

kinetic chain baloney

You have a good point. This certainly is not the same momentum transfer as in an impact.

Here's one example how the term is quite commonly being used though:
"Transfer of momentum in reference to the study of Kinesiology
commonly refers to energy transfer between individual body segments in
order to execute an efficient movement - with one segment decelerating
while the next one accelerates."

Is there any real momentum transfer or is the term used totally incorrectly?

Other thought on hands do not have to slow down. If the body generated torque that forces the grip ahead is large enough to resist the increased inertia but remains constant while the release happens, the acceleration of the hands is still going to decrease, it just doesn't go negative.

Incorrect I believe... no momentum transfer. Does the the muscle contraction which causes a lever to move transfer momentum? Think about your jaw when you chew or your arm hinging at the elbow. Those muscles generate a force to move a lever but they're not transferring momentum per se.

Some people talk about the "kinetic chain" as if each body part reaches the limit of its range of travel and magically transfers on the momentum it had attained to the next body part. Thats bogus (but it sounds good doesn't it). Another analogy often referred to by arm chair golf scientists is the bullwhip.

They claim the golf swing is like cracking a bullwhip where-in a small input momentum travels as a wave and experiences tremendous acceleration as it reaches the free end. Its not.

Scientist tried explaining the observations (test results) of a bullwhip crack using just conservation of energy, then using just conservation of momentum (momentum transfer). Neither simplistic math model explained the measured results. What they've discovered is that energy, momentum and angular momentum all must be conserved to arrive at a solution that comes anywhere near explaining the measurements. Its complex. The actions of the human body during the golf swing are complex too.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstien

Again... What it boils down to is hand path and velocity profile.

Yes... I agree the rate of acceleration of the hands (the jerk) will likely always decrease but as long as acceleration is positive, the hands do not slow down. Nesbit's measurements prove not all golfer's hands slow down. That (should be) the end of the story. (Back to the drawing board as they say)

BTW Nesbit's measurements show better golfers' power peaks at impact not before. Any math model showing power peaking before impact is deficient. Beware the math modeler claiming to hold the key to the 300 yrd. drive. He's as much a charlatan as the swing training aid salesman. (IMHOP of course)

 

[Bronco Billy]

The Pivot is also BullSh*t.....

Incorrect I believe... no momentum transfer. Does the the muscle contraction which causes a lever to move transfer momentum? Think about your jaw when you chew or your arm hinging at the elbow. Those muscles generate a force to move a lever but they're not transferring momentum per se.

Some people talk about the "kinetic chain" as if each body part reaches the limit of its range of travel and magically transfers on the momentum it had attained to the next body part. Thats bogus (but it sounds good doesn't it). Another analogy often referred to by arm chair golf scientists is the bullwhip.

They claim the golf swing is like cracking a bullwhip where-in a small input momentum travels as a wave and experiences tremendous acceleration as it reaches the free end. Its not.

Scientist tried explaining the observations (test results) of a bullwhip crack using just conservation of energy, then using just conservation of momentum (momentum transfer). Neither simplistic math model explained the measured results. What they've discovered is that energy, momentum and angular momentum all must be conserved to arrive at a solution that comes anywhere near explaining the measurements. Its complex. The actions of the human body during the golf swing are complex too.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstien

Again... What it boils down to is hand path and velocity profile.

Yes... I agree the rate of acceleration of the hands (the jerk) will likely always decrease but as long as acceleration is positive, the hands do not slow down. Nesbit's measurements prove not all golfer's hands slow down. That (should be) the end of the story. (Back to the drawing board as they say)

BTW Nesbit's measurements show better golfers' power peaks at impact not before. Any math model showing power peaking before impact is deficient. Beware the math modeler claiming to hold the key to the 300 yrd. drive. He's as much a charlatan as the swing training aid salesman. (IMHOP of course)

nm.. Since You Just Demonstrated that the Kinetic Chain is BullSh*t....Does this Not Also Imply that the Most Hallowed PIVOT is also BullSh*t.... In My Opinion Most of the Force that is Applied to the Golf Grip is Generated by the Golfer's(the Jerk as You Say...) Upper Body(Above the Waist) as Opposed to Below the Waist..... Our New Found Knowledge Will Surely Make a Great Day for All of Golf.......

 

[mandrin]

New Found Knowledge

nm.. Since You Just Demonstrated that the Kinetic Chain is BullSh*t....Does this Not Also Imply that the Most Hallowed PIVOT is also BullSh*t.... In My Opinion Most of the Force that is Applied to the Golf Grip is Generated by the Golfer's(the Jerk as You Say...) Upper Body(Above the Waist) as Opposed to Below the Waist..... Our New Found Knowledge Will Surely Make a Great Day for All of Golf.......

I would love to hear Bronco Billy expound a bit on all his new found knowledge.
It appears all so exciting and yet he keeps it all for himself.
Perhaps it is just shouting and pitw.

 

[golfspike]

I would love to see your golf swing!!!!

 

[Bronco Billy]

The Pivot Exists.... It Just Does NOT Transfer Much Force to The Golf Grip ....

I would love to see your golf swing!!!!

UpRight with Counter Rotation and a Pivot.... As nm Proved it is Impossible for the Pivot to Transfer Much Force to the Grip of the Club.....You Disagree with nm? Take the Issue Up with Him.... And get Your Ass swung into REALITY.....The only thing the Pivot Does is Facilitate the 90 Degree Directional Rotation Necessary to Square the Golf Club..... The Main Force Source to the Grip is the Upper Body.... JeffMan has some very nice Pictures and an Anatomical Explanation of This.... Jeffman has many Letters after His Name.... Have a great Day with Your New Found Knowledge......

 

[golfspike]

UpRight with Counter Rotation and a Pivot.... As nm Proved it is Impossible for the Pivot to Transfer Power to the Grip of the Club.....You Disagree with nm? Take the Issue Up with Him.... And get Your Ass swung into REALITY.....The only thing the Pivot Does is Facilitate the 90 Degree Directional Rotation Necessary to Square the Golf Club..... The Main Power Source to the Grip is the Upper Body.... JeffMan has some very nice Pictures and an Anatomical Explanation of This.... Jeffman has many Letters after His Name.... Have a great Day with Your New Found Knowledge......

Easy there bronco i was referring to seeing the Mr Mandrin's golf swing

 

[Bronco Billy]

Actually Mandrin's Golf Swing Doesn't Matter to the Discussion or His Theories.....

Easy there bronco i was referring to seeing the Mr Mandrin's golf swing

Cool.....

 

[mandrin]

Netiquette

UpRight with Counter Rotation and a Pivot.... As nm Proved it is Impossible for the Pivot to Transfer Much Force to the Grip of the Club.....You Disagree with nm? Take the Issue Up with Him.... And get Your Ass swung into REALITY.....The only thing the Pivot Does is Facilitate the 90 Degree Directional Rotation Necessary to Square the Golf Club..... The Main Force Source to the Grip is the Upper Body.... JeffMan has some very nice Pictures and an Anatomical Explanation of This.... Jeffman has many Letters after His Name.... Have a great Day with Your New Found Knowledge......

Psy: Bronco Billy,

Please, come on in and make yourself comfortable on the couch and just relax.

Well let’s start. You seem to like to post in a rather particular way on various golf forums?

BB: -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: Very interesting. Now, tell me, why exactly do you overuse capitalization and bold text?

BB:---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: I see. Do you feel that this might relate to some trauma in the past when quite young?

BB: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: I have never had such an interesting case before. Perhaps hypnosis can be of help.

BB: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: Well the time is up, there is another patient waiting. Let’s schedule for early next week.


Note: Excessive use of capitalization and bold text is often considered very poor netiquette and seen as tantamount to shouting. !!!

 

[hcw]

Likewise...

Actually Mandrin's Golf Swing Doesn't Matter to the Discussion or His Theories.....

...his discussions and his theories don't matter much to a real golf swing

 

[Bronco Billy]

Thanks... The Checks in the Mail....

Psy: Bronco Billy,

Please, come on in and make yourself comfortable on the couch and just relax.

Well let’s start. You seem to like to post in a rather particular way on various golf forums?

BB: -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: Very interesting. Now, tell me, why exactly do you overuse capitalization and bold text?

BB:---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: I see. Do you feel that this might relate to some trauma in the past when quite young?

BB: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: I have never had such an interesting case before. Perhaps hypnosis can be of help.

BB: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psy: Well the time is up, there is another patient waiting. Let’s schedule for early next week.


Note: Excessive use of capitalization and bold text is often considered very poor netiquette and seen as tantamount to shouting. !!!

.

 

[mandrin]

Trajectory / clubhead speed

We have seen that the release is not relying on centrifugal force as is commonly taken for granted by virtually everyone in golf.

Furthermore the release torque is caused primarily by a linear pulling force exerted on the grip end of the handle.

I wonder if there is any interest for me to spend time on looking into the effect of the trajectory of the hands on clubhead speed.

 

[Bronco Billy]

If It's Not to Much Trouble .....

We have seen that the release is not relying on centrifugal force as is commonly taken for granted by virtually everyone in golf.

Furthermore the release torque is caused primarily by a linear pulling force exerted on the grip end of the handle.

I wonder if there is any interest for me to spend time on looking into the effect of the trajectory of the hands on clubhead speed.

I Would Like to Know the Optimum Trajectory Path of the Hands to Produce the Maximum ClubHead Speed.....

 

[golfspike]

I Would Like to Know the Optimum Trajectory Path of the Hands to Produce the Maximum ClubHead Speed.....

Bronco looks like you need another session on the couch

 

[mandrin]

I Would Like to Know the Optimum Trajectory Path of the Hands to Produce the Maximum ClubHead Speed.....

Bronco Billy,

It appears that your condition is way more serious than I had anticipated. For the moment try a bit of self hypnosis by repeating every day just before falling asleep, when in a deep but tension free concentration, the phrase below:

"Excessive use of capitalization and bold text is often considered very poor netiquette and seen as tantamount to shouting. !!! "
​

​

 

[LiftOff]

Mandrin: The font is hilarious

Unfortunately, he probably doesn't care.

 

[mandrin]

Unfortunately, he probably doesn't care.

Liftoff,
Some people never grow up.
It is like the weeds in a garden.
There will always be some around.

 

[mandrin]

carpe diem quam minimum credula postero

We have seen that the release is not relying on centrifugal force as is commonly taken for granted by virtually everyone in golf.

Furthermore the release torque is caused primarily by a linear pulling force exerted on the grip end of the handle.

I wonder if there is any interest for me to spend time on looking into the effect of the trajectory of the hands on clubhead speed.

mandrin,

I know it is somewhat difficult to apprehend, with so many animated discussions taking place on other golf forums, that this large forum is such a lame duck when it comes to science related subjects.

However, life is short and time is fleeting and it should be apparent to you by now that your posts are not really appreciated so as to participate and that you are hence simply wasting your time. So just let it go.

Happy golfing,
mandrin

 

[mandrin]

mandrin,

Thanks, for such sound advice.

Happy golfing,
mandrin

 

[Biffer]

Too Deep?

mandrin,

Is it possible that your stuff goes a little too deeply into the nuts and bolts for most members

I'm sure your contributions here have been much appreciated by most members, but I have a feeling that the general population is only interested in hearing the bare basics, just enough to understand what they should be doing to create a functional golf swing.

You don't need to know, or even understand, how a car engine functions in order to be able to drive one. Just explain what levers and peddles to push and how to steer.

It seems to me that your presentations, for the most part, are too much like a treasure hunt and most of us just want to know how to find the treasure without performing a search.