Release

[dbl]

The second (basically an extension of the first) is that nobody goes to the lesson tee tomorrow better prepared to play golf after reviewing the information.

mongoose, I guess you missed it, but I already indicated earlier in this thread that I used one of Mandrin's papers regarding initial torque and USED it AT the practice tee.

 

[strav]

Why not?

The audience/users of the forums has changed. It could by cyclical, it might be for good. Either way that's your first hurdle. The second (basically an extension of the first) is that nobody goes to the lesson tee tomorrow better prepared to play golf after reviewing the information.

I'm really on the fence about this level of detail in the golf swing. It's certainly interesting but at some point it has diminishing returns.

Mandrin is R&D. Why would anyone seek to discourage that?

 

[matt kluck]

Continuous Improvement

Mandrin,
Thank you for your posts and my thanks to every forum poster who has commented/contributed to this discussion. I personally did not become interested in why until I started wanting to become a better teacher. I received my degree in Economics(not much good when you are disecting the golf swing) and through many discussions with top teachers and my wife, an engineer herself, I decided to go back to school and learn a few things. I took a couple of math and physics classes, (vibration analysis was a great class) and am intriqued by the interpretation of the many member contributions on this forum. Anyway, I wanted to say to you all, keep the good work(s)coming and I will continue to enjoy and learn from the banter.
Matt Kluck

 

[Bronco Billy]

Conclusions?????

Cmon Mandrin.....Finish Your Presentation I want to see the Conclusion of all this Drivel......

 

[birdie_man]

I have questions I will write soon...

(moving right now so quite busy)

 

[2mongoose]

2mongoose,

Many often use a computer and frequently drive a car.
Yet, not all want to know what makes them go or tick.
Knowledge is a basic corner stone of any descent civilization.
Golf is part of the overall scheme and worthy of consideration.
Those who are only interested in ready made information, nevertheless,
Depend on those few individuals willing to spend time to develop it.
Brian, on several occasions, mentioned he is becoming a better teacher,
For the simple reason of having access to correct scientific information.

I don't disagree with any of that, mandrin. In fact, I find the information you provide interesting and the members of the forum should be greatful of your efforts. I'm just sorry I can't add much to the discussion.

Philosophically speaking I haven't decided how much to engage - again just personal preference. However, I was merely offering my insight as to why your information was not generating as much discussion as you were expecting. Maybe it will change, maybe it won't.....but let's shoot for the former.

mongoose, I guess you missed it, but I already indicated earlier in this thread that I used one of Mandrin's papers regarding initial torque and USED it AT the practice tee.

Kevin - I think that's great! You're probably the exception rather than the rule. But are you really telling me you read this information and hit it better tomorrow? Brian has stated one of his goals to get his student hitting it better ASAP or he's failed. I'm not sure my timetable is this quick but my point is this stuff takes some time. Miraculous (and sustainable) changes just don't happen overnight. At least in mass.

Mandrin is R&D. Why would anyone seek to discourage that?

I'm not! I believe you've mis-interpreted my response.

 

[dbl]

DBL - I think that's great! You're probably the exception rather than the rule. But are you really telling me you read this information and hit it better tomorrow? Brian has stated one of his goals to get his student hitting it better ASAP or he's failed. I'm not sure my timetable is this quick but my point is this stuff takes some time. Miraculous (and sustainable) changes just don't happen overnight. At least in mass.

I'm not sure your point about "tomorrow". I have several ways of swinging a golf club and can switch between them fairly fast. I read a paper of Mandrin's involving face angle, and went to the range and immediately implemented something that was inline with the paper. I would not judge the information relative to being "better" or playing "better." Proving out the mathematical model is a wonderful thing in and of itself. I will lock that nugget about initial torque away and incorporate it at some point when I develop an appropriate swing method. Right now, as I mentioned, I am concentrating more on a four barrel approach.

 

[mandrin]

Proving out the mathematical model is a wonderful thing in and of itself.

Glad to see another soul looking beyond the mirror sensing beauty where most see none.

 

[mandrin]

I have questions I will write soon...

(moving right now so quite busy)

We are all impatiently awaiting your questions once moving is out of the way.
Don’t forget to bring along all the various golf clubs and assorted impedimenta.

 

[birdie_man]

Hehe.....I knew that was coming.

Esp. since I have been posting tonight.

And esp. cause you are mandrin.

I'm gonna wait until I can formulate............my werds bettar thoe. (late write nowe)

Buddy I have impedimenta coming out of............everywhere.

 

[birdie_man]

OK here we go mandy.

What I was gonna say basically was...

Regarding hands slowing:

I see: someone bashing something with a towel.....or throwing clubs.........or me making practice swings to an impact position.....(with a "snap of the chain")

(I have discovered to be very bad for the shoulders and neck BTW...)

This of course is not swinging a club.....but these are very similar motions.

.....

BTW Brian/mandrin.....

I have read some stuff from an instructor on another forum on the net who seems to think or at least imply that the hands slow a lot more in certain golf swings. (at the least)

And I am not talking strictly about pros vs. hackers.

I of course cannot speak for him, but in the "snap and slow LESS" group (he may even say they don't snap at all, though I am unsure) I believe he would give the examples of Ben Hogan, Furyk, Toms, Mahan, Immelman, Byrd.

Those players VS. a Nicklaus, Weiskopf, Middlecoff, Els, Mickelson, Villegas, Joe Durant, Byron Nelson, Geoff Ogilvy, etc. etc.

(you should be catching my drift by now with the swing styles)

I don't think I really buy it BTW. ESP. if they are said to NOT "snap the chain."

I think it is interesting anyhow.

This ties in with Tongzilla's thread...which has raised related questions...and contains some more of my views...

Here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9981

 

[birdie_man]

BTW mandrin. I hope you are not disappointed as I know you were all jacked up for this.

 

[mandrin]

OK here we go mandy.

What I was gonna say basically was...

Regarding hands slowing:

I see: someone bashing something with a towel.....or throwing clubs.........or me making practice swings to an impact position.....(with a "snap of the chain")

(I have discovered to be very bad for the shoulders and neck BTW...)

This of course is not swinging a club.....but these are very similar motions.

.....

BTW Brian/mandrin.....

I have read some stuff from an instructor on another forum on the net who seems to think or at least imply that the hands slow a lot more in certain golf swings. (at the least)

And I am not talking strictly about pros vs. hackers.

In the "snap and slow LESS" group (I am not sure but he may even say they don't at all) I believe he would give the examples of Ben Hogan, Furyk, Toms, Mahan, Immelman, Byrd.

Those players VS. a Nicklaus, Weiskopf, Middlecoff, Els, Mickelson, Villegas, Joe Durant, Byron Nelson, Geoff Ogilvy, etc. etc.

(you should be catching my drift by now with the swing styles)

I don't think I really buy it BTW. ESP. if they are said to NOT "snap the chain."

I think it is interesting anyhow.

This ties in with Tongzilla's thread...which has raised related questions...here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9981

birdie,

…….I see the trend…..quite interesting…..lots to think about….. worth the wait……….

 

[birdie_man]

"/sarcasm?"

 

[mandrin]

"/sarcasm?"

birdie, birdie, I wouldn't I even dare to envision such uncivilized behaviour?

But now that you are here and reading this post I like to ask - what is your opinion with regard to release and specifically to the hands slowing down prior to impact?

Who is the instructor you refer to in your post?

 

[birdie_man]

Instructor: TOP SECRET.

(or: see PM Box)

My opinion.....

I'm a little mixed up at the moment. (no jokes please)

I think this guy may have something...or may be onto something. Exactly what that is I do not know.

In my mind, I can't help but think that all pro golf swings "snap the chain"...letting the arms fly by and creating speed.

I know I have a hard time believing that some flat-out do not. I don't know how you canNOT do it.........if you want to create any speed and "tilt your axis." I don't see myself creating any real speed otherwise.

I am more open to the idea that certain guys do it earlier/later or perhaps with more force. And that these variables are influenced by and/or do facilitate other mechanics in the golf swing.

i.e. if they do it earlier/later.........why?

i.e. if they do it with more/less force......why? Simply cecause they can or cannot??? (ability) Or maybe not?

Etc. etc.

Sorry for my vagueness (I know you probably are eager to pick on it at this point ) but it IS pretty vague in my mind right now.

Tongzilla may have some to add.

 

[mandrin]

Instructor: TOP SECRET.

(or: see PM Box)

My opinion.....

I'm a little mixed up at the moment. (no jokes please)

I think this guy may have something...or may be onto something. Exactly what that is I do not know.

In my mind, I can't help but think that all pro golf swings "snap the chain"...letting the arms fly by and creating speed.

I know I have a hard time believing that some flat-out do not. I don't know how you canNOT do it.........if you want to create any speed and "tilt your axis." I don't see myself creating any real speed otherwise.

I am more open to the idea that certain guys do it earlier/later or perhaps with more force. And that these variables are influenced by and/or do facilitate other mechanics in the golf swing.

i.e. if they do it earlier/later.........why?

i.e. if they do it with more/less force......why? Simply cecause they can or cannot??? (ability) Or maybe not?

Etc. etc.

Sorry for my vagueness (I know you probably are eager to pick on it at this point ) but it IS pretty vague in my mind right now.

Tongzilla may have some to add.

birdie_man,

The problem with identifying and analyzing elements in a golf swing, such as release, is that some have than a tendency to put too much emphasis on them as if they existed as isolated and independent elements in a swing. This is inherent in human nature to dissect things into ever smaller pieces. However a swing should always be a fluid continuous motion of all the many parts moving in harmony.

I am really surprised that some still flatly deny the for all readily observable fact that hands slow down prior to impact in every super slow motion video sequence of pro swings shown on TV. Equally very surprising this complete denial of the transfer of momentum/energy occurring in the typical kinetic chain action of linked masses.

The more vigorous a down stroke the faster the release and the greater the braking torque exerted by the releasing club back onto the arms. Hence the argument that a more vigorous action could possible prevent this slowing down to occur is not relevant. It is actually only in the wishy-washy type swing of some amateurs, generating much less torque, that one is able to forcefully interfere with the down swing.

In a natural sound swing starting from the ground up having all body parts contributing their fair share it is simply not possible to prevent this slowing down of hands to occur. There are two basic mechanisms at work in a down swing - generation of energy/momentum and continuous redistribution form distal to proximal elements. The effortless swing is one where the second mechanism is optimum.

 

[golfspike]

birdie_man,

The problem with identifying and analyzing elements in a golf swing, such as release, is that some have than a tendency to put too much emphasis on them as if they existed as isolated and independent elements in a swing. This is inherent in human nature to dissect things into ever smaller pieces. However a swing should always be a fluid continuous motion of all the many parts moving in harmony.

I am really surprised that some still flatly deny the for all readily observable fact that hands slow down prior to impact in every super slow motion video sequence of pro swings shown on TV. Equally very surprising this complete denial of the transfer of momentum/energy occurring in the typical kinetic chain action of linked masses.

The more vigorous a down stroke the faster the release and the greater the braking torque exerted by the releasing club back onto the arms. Hence the argument that a more vigorous action could possible prevent this slowing down to occur is not relevant. It is actually only in the wishy-washy type swing of some amateurs, generating much less torque, that one is able to forcefully interfere with the down swing.

In a natural sound swing starting from the ground up having all body parts contributing their fair share it is simply not possible to prevent this slowing down of hands to occur. There are two basic mechanisms at work in a down swing - generation of energy/momentum and continuous redistribution form distal to proximal elements. The effortless swing is one where the second mechanism is optimum.

Mandrin
Can you clarify your position on the kinetic chain for me..... as i understand it a section slows for the transfer of energy to speed up the next section and so on???
In some other forums i read where people with "qualifications" say this does not happen with the pivot and it does not brake at all particulary when they are discussing Ben Hogan's swing. The reasoning is that a trebuchet effect in his swing ( catapult but you would know this)
I find this hard to be factual..... but i simply don't know...Possible for you to give me the thruth?

 

[Bronco Billy]

The Truth.....

Mandrin
Can you clarify your position on the kinetic chain for me..... as i understand it a section slows for the transfer of energy to speed up the next section and so on???
In some other forums i read where people with "qualifications" say this does not happen with the pivot and it does not brake at all particulary when they are discussing Ben Hogan's swing. The reasoning is that a trebuchet effect in his swing ( catapult but you would know this)
I find this hard to be factual..... but i simply don't know...Possible for you to give me the thruth?

I Too am Interested in the Truth..... Aren't We All.... SomeTimes I Think Not..... Would You Mind Sharing the Other Forums where the kinetic chain is Being Discussed? Thanks.....

 

[golfspike]

I Too am Interested in the Truth..... Aren't We All.... SomeTimes I Think Not..... Would You Mind Sharing the Other Forums where the kinetic chain is Being Discussed? Thanks.....

Send me a post message Bronco and i let you know but honestly i think Mandrin will be the best bet