Right Arm Pickup...literally a pickup?

[mgjordan]

Dave,
"The geometry will be the same for both" means exactly what it sounds like it means.

The planeline is the planeline. The end of the club closest to the planeline must point at it. If neither end is closest, the club must be parallel to it. This is true whether you hit, swing, use a right forarm pickup, a shoulder turn takeaway, a hands controlled pivot, or pivot controlled hands. The geometry is the same for procedures.

Whether Bobby was using a right forarm pickup or a shoulder turn takeaway doesn't matter. If he was making a correct motion, the geometry would be correct.

 

[David Alford]

rhw wrote:
<It could be on plane for any shot where the grip is taken in the cup of the left hand, as in putting. But, the way most people hit full shots, the grip is taken with the heel pad of the left hand on the top of the grip and the resultant angle between the club and the left arm is too great for the left arm to be on plane.>

Well, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Moe Norman's swing. His left arm is on plane. This evening I demonstrated this swing to someone who said they would try to find this site and give a report as to what he observed. IN OTHER WORDS, THE BALL GOES STRAIGHT EVERY TIME WITH THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. oops, sorry, I got overly enthused. Yes, Yes, the swing really works. Left arm on plane, and my ball flight contradicts holenone's theory it's impossible. Trust the little white ball, he's the only objective guy around.

 

[David Alford]

mgjordan, if you define "geometry" the direction of the butt of the club points, OK.

OTOH, if one can use the term "geometry" to refer to the angles of the club, hands, and arms, as well as the relative positions. Those wouldn't necessarily be the same, I'm sure you will agree.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

rhw wrote:
<It could be on plane for any shot where the grip is taken in the cup of the left hand, as in putting. But, the way most people hit full shots, the grip is taken with the heel pad of the left hand on the top of the grip and the resultant angle between the club and the left arm is too great for the left arm to be on plane.>

Well, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Moe Norman's swing. His left arm is on plane. This evening I demonstrated this swing to someone who said they would try to find this site and give a report as to what he observed. IN OTHER WORDS, THE BALL GOES STRAIGHT EVERY TIME WITH THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. oops, sorry, I got overly enthused. Yes, Yes, the swing really works. Left arm on plane, and my ball flight contradicts holenone's theory it's impossible. Trust the little white ball, he's the only objective guy around.

Since anything can be in its own plane. Which plane is that left arm on? Certainly not the same plane the right arm is and I'm looking at Moe swing as I type. Trust the white ball but don't trust your observations.
Can't wait to see you, oops- that person post his observations.

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

rhw wrote:
<It could be on plane for any shot where the grip is taken in the cup of the left hand, as in putting. But, the way most people hit full shots, the grip is taken with the heel pad of the left hand on the top of the grip and the resultant angle between the club and the left arm is too great for the left arm to be on plane.>

Well, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Moe Norman's swing. His left arm is on plane. This evening I demonstrated this swing to someone who said they would try to find this site and give a report as to what he observed. IN OTHER WORDS, THE BALL GOES STRAIGHT EVERY TIME WITH THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. oops, sorry, I got overly enthused. Yes, Yes, the swing really works. Left arm on plane, and my ball flight contradicts holenone's theory it's impossible. Trust the little white ball, he's the only objective guy around.

Since anything can be in its own plane. Which plane is that left arm on? Certainly not the same plane the right arm is and I'm looking at Moe swing as I type. Trust the white ball but don't trust your observations.
Can't wait to see you, oops- that person post his observations.

Check picture #10 showing the Natural Golf setup. (I believe this is Moe's setup.) The left arm is not on plane.

http://www.naturalgolf.com/Whatis/grip.htm

 

[DDL]

quote2) Begin practicing with a chipping motion -- just a couple of feet back and through. Stay still; weight on the front leg. Move the club only with the action of the right forearm -- think of keeping your upper right arm still and vertical. You will only be using your right arm fron the elbow joint down. Maintaining the Flying Wedges means keeping your impact alignments all the way through -- from set up to the follow through (which is only a couple of feet past the ball).

RWH:

Excellent post. However, I find it difficult or impossible to keep the upper forearm vertical and keep the left arm straight. THe only way I can bend the right forearm and keep the left arm straight is performing a pulling back motion of the elbow as in pulling back a pinball machine plunger or like 6B's lawnmower cord pull. I also have to learn to relax and lossen up considrably. Great anaysis.

 

[David Alford]

The left arm is on plane and the link you provided doesn't show much of anything except grips. Do a search for swinglikemoe.com and get Todd Graves videos or meet him personally (I have) and he will draw the plane lines proving the point it basically is a one axis swing. I'm sure Natural Golf has videos and graphics of that, but they have deviated from what Moe really did and I don't trust them to be entirely accurate.

Moe swings on one axis, Todd does, his brother Tim can, and so can I. So can you, anyone. It's not THAT hard. But you won't learn it in TGM.

 

[EdZ]

An image that may help you get the feel for this is to imagine that:

a) the butt of the club moves straight back and straight through (from hip to hip)

b) 'imagine' that the clubhead also moves straight back, on a parallel track to the butt of the club at the same rate (although it won't) - keeping the butt end and clubhead nearly moving together (mid body hands help this feel)

Now the clubhead won't move straight back at hip high the clubhead will move to line up with the hands/butt of club - parallel to the plane line - when everything rotates around the right elbow.

The feel is somewhat like 'hitting the ball with your right elbow', or 'with the entire 'inside' of the right forearm' - while extending the right arm

Post impact, you may find the feel of an 'upper cut punch' a useful one, letting the wrists hinge, the way the wrists hinge.

A great drill to get the straight back 'feel' - at address, cock the club up - then move the hands straight back until the shaft 'lines up' - and swing through

Very good when combined with the split grip drill, and the feel of the right forearm

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

The left arm is on plane and the link you provided doesn't show much of anything except grips. Do a search for swinglikemoe.com and get Todd Graves videos or meet him personally (I have) and he will draw the plane lines proving the point it basically is a one axis swing. I'm sure Natural Golf has videos and graphics of that, but they have deviated from what Moe really did and I don't trust them to be entirely accurate.

Moe swings on one axis, Todd does, his brother Tim can, and so can I. So can you, anyone. It's not THAT hard. But you won't learn it in TGM.

Todd Graves:

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

The left arm is on plane and the link you provided doesn't show much of anything except grips. Do a search for swinglikemoe.com and get Todd Graves videos or meet him personally (I have) and he will draw the plane lines proving the point it basically is a one axis swing. I'm sure Natural Golf has videos and graphics of that, but they have deviated from what Moe really did and I don't trust them to be entirely accurate.

Moe swings on one axis, Todd does, his brother Tim can, and so can I. So can you, anyone. It's not THAT hard. But you won't learn it in TGM.

From the swinglikemoe.com site...

"SINGLE AXIS: The single axis is simply formed from a proper grip and arm position as well as spine tilt. Notice the club shaft aligning with the trail arm and the lead arm is visible above the trail arm."

In other words, Right Arm (trail arm) on the Plane, Left Arm (lead arm) above the Plane.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

rhw wrote:
<It could be on plane for any shot where the grip is taken in the cup of the left hand, as in putting. But, the way most people hit full shots, the grip is taken with the heel pad of the left hand on the top of the grip and the resultant angle between the club and the left arm is too great for the left arm to be on plane.>

Well, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Moe Norman's swing. His left arm is on plane. This evening I demonstrated this swing to someone who said they would try to find this site and give a report as to what he observed. IN OTHER WORDS, THE BALL GOES STRAIGHT EVERY TIME WITH THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. oops, sorry, I got overly enthused. Yes, Yes, the swing really works. Left arm on plane, and my ball flight contradicts holenone's theory it's impossible. Trust the little white ball, he's the only objective guy around.

Yes, I'm familiar with "Moe Norman's swing" and have studied it. Todd Graves is a friend of mine and I have played golf with him and Tim and watched him hit balls for hours. As I said, the left arm can be on plane when the left hand grip is taken in the cup of the left hand, as Moe does. However, the left arm isn't on plane if the grip is taken with the left heel pad on top of the grip. I'm glad the "Moe Norman swing" works well for you. Do you find that can hit the ball an equal distance with both grip methods? I know that I couldn't, even though there was great accuracy involved with the "Moe Norman swing".

 

[Dr_J]

this is a really great topic...please don't let Alford ruin it by getting it off topic and turning it into a discussion about him and his posts. I would appreciate any and all info on the right forearm pickup as this topic so wonderfully started out describing.

Thanks Stuper Dave for ruining another great topic with your innane questions and attempts at debate.

 

[denny.]

The single axis idea that the hips and shoulders are square at impact is a major power leak.

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

The left arm is on plane and the link you provided doesn't show much of anything except grips. Do a search for swinglikemoe.com and get Todd Graves videos or meet him personally (I have) and he will draw the plane lines proving the point it basically is a one axis swing. I'm sure Natural Golf has videos and graphics of that, but they have deviated from what Moe really did and I don't trust them to be entirely accurate.

Moe swings on one axis, Todd does, his brother Tim can, and so can I. So can you, anyone. It's not THAT hard. But you won't learn it in TGM.

Can you clarify which part(s) of "Single Axis" aren't included in The Golfing Machine? Are you referring to Zero Accumulator #3 (Left Shoulder Inclined Plane Angle)? Don't Sections 6-B-3-B and 7-13 define the On Plane Left Arm you mentioned?

 

[EdZ]

Originally posted by ragman

[/quote]
Todd Graves:

[/quote]

He understands the wheel, and the hub - but IMO is a little bit too much 'around' and not enough 'up' - take that red line and make it a bit more perpendicular. The line is from the hands to the top of the spine and does not include the ball unless there is zero angle between the shaft/arms.

He is also over rotating the hands/getting laid off - letting the clubhead get inside the hands before it should in the takeaway. Right forearm pickup is exactly the feel he needs to learn to get there.

Thanks for the pic Ragman

 

[David Alford]

First of all the red line shows the arm, hands, club ARE on one plane. The shoulder turns flatter with the higher irons, but with the driver it is pretty darn close to everything being one axis, and this is noticeable from the rear as Todd Grave's video analsysis shows. He has ONE plane line going thru shoulders, arms, hands, and club. Graves says his swing is one axis/one plane from address to finish. My point is, I'm not making this stuff up and holenone can argue his theory it is "impossible" with these guys if he chooses. I'd say, for all practical purposes, they do it.

rwh, you are correct. What Moe and Graves do is different from Natural Golf. They hold the club more in the cup of the left hand for starters. Do you agree their swings are essentially one axis, or do you agree with my critics here that it cannot be done?

To answer your question I do get more distance (perhaps 20 yds w/driver) with a lower body dominant swing, but there isn't a huge difference.

 

[David Alford]

Dr. J, other respondants seem to disagree.

Edz, Todd Graves swings on plane. His club is not laid off. He does not need to go more "up". Yes, his hands go slightly inside on the backswing, but so did Moe. It has to with this swing. I have modified this swing so my hands are not slightly inside, but it is debatable whether this is an improvement. Todd Graves is one of the better ball strikers around, arguably as straight and a little longer than Moe who himself said as much.

Lastly, Todd does use a delayed right hand pickup once the club approaches parallel on the backswing.

 

[David Alford]

To be more precise, there is one point, both Moe and Todd are slightly off plane (when the club is parallel to the ground on the backswing), but it is minor. On whole, his swing and Moe's swing are exemplary, one axis swings. Go see him in person if you think it is bs.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

First of all the red line shows the arm, hands, club ARE on one plane. The shoulder turns flatter with the higher irons, but with the driver it is pretty darn close to everything being one axis, and this is noticeable from the rear as Todd Grave's video analsysis shows. He has ONE plane line going thru shoulders, arms, hands, and club. Graves says his swing is one axis/one plane from address to finish. My point is, I'm not making this stuff up and holenone can argue his theory it is "impossible" with these guys if he chooses. I'd say, for all practical purposes, they do it.

Didn't you just say, "The left arm is on plane"??

You say your "not making this stuff up" but it's rather obvious (yellow line) that his left arm is not on plane. No?

quote:rwh, you are correct. What Moe and Graves do is different from Natural Golf. They hold the club more in the cup of the left hand for starters.

Actually...no.

It's under the heel pad.

quoteo you agree their swings are essentially one axis, or do you agree with my critics here that it cannot be done?

Swinging on a single axis is nearly impossible. Which is why you use words like "essentially" and "basically".

 

[mgjordan]

YOU CAN'T SWING THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. It doesn't start on plane and it OBVIOUSLY isn't on plane at the end of the backstroke.

EDZ,

It doesn't appear to me that his club is layed off. His club is short of parallel. The butt end of the club is pointed directly at the plane line. It also looks like he is using a right forarm pickup on a turned shoulder plane angle. His right hand goes from address straght up behind his right shoulder. He does seem to have a lack of extensor action, but it is hard to tell from that angle.