Right Arm Pickup...literally a pickup?

[David Alford]

< Didn't you just say, "The left arm is on plane"??

You say your "not making this stuff up" but it's rather obvious (yellow line) that his left arm is not on plane. No?>

Moe and Todd Grave's left arm is on plane. Which is the red line, a straight line from clubhead to shoulder in all dimensions. It is not the yellow line.

< YOU CAN'T SWING THE LEFT ARM ON PLANE. It doesn't start on plane and it OBVIOUSLY isn't on plane at the end of the backstroke.>

That's false. It is a one plane axis. Go to swinglikemoe.com and you will see this is exactly what they assert. And having met Todd Graves and watched his video and drawn plane lines thru his swing plane and Moe Norman's, it is essentially true. Now, your one escape is the modifier "essentially". I'm quite comfortable with it, and if you had an audience of 100 who looked at Todd Grave's video analysis, I'll bet 99 out of 100 would agree, it is a one axis plane.

To put this in perspective, hold your left arm as straight as possible. Is it straight or essentially straight? There is always a slight bend because of the way our arms are made, but jeeze, it is essentially straight.

 

[David Alford]

armourall, does HK describe how to successfully accomplish a one axis swing? I don't recall he did, other than brief mention of the single axis possibility. Todd Graves can and does.

 

[David Alford]

<rwh, you are correct. What Moe and Graves do is different from Natural Golf. They hold the club more in the cup of the left hand for starters.>

<<Actually...no.>>

You're right, I meant heel pad. I cup the club under the heal pad, which is why I said "cup". Cupping the club in center of the palm is what Natural Golf teaches.

Todd Graves does not teach the Natural Golf method of holding the club. They are quite distinctive. Graves is under the heel, and is basically a conventional grip.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

First of all the red line shows the arm, hands, club ARE on one plane. The shoulder turns flatter with the higher irons, but with the driver it is pretty darn close to everything being one axis, and this is noticeable from the rear as Todd Grave's video analsysis shows. He has ONE plane line going thru shoulders, arms, hands, and club. Graves says his swing is one axis/one plane from address to finish. My point is, I'm not making this stuff up and holenone can argue his theory it is "impossible" with these guys if he chooses. I'd say, for all practical purposes, they do it.

rwh, you are correct. What Moe and Graves do is different from Natural Golf. They hold the club more in the cup of the left hand for starters. Do you agree their swings are essentially one axis, or do you agree with my critics here that it cannot be done?

To answer your question I do get more distance (perhaps 20 yds w/driver) with a lower body dominant swing, but there isn't a huge difference.

There is no question in my mind that Moe's left arm is on plane at impact. I have too much video showing it. It almost has to be on plane if you hold the grip in the cups of both hands, as Moe does. As I understand the term, Moe's is a single axis (zero shift) swing that, because of the left hand palm grip, features an on-plane left arm.

Todd has changed his left hand grip. In the mid-nineties, when he was still with Natural Golf, he gripped in the cup of the left hand; now, he grips under the heel pad. Because of that, his left arm is not as on-plane as it used to be. However, when he had the grip in the left palm, his swing was identical to Moe's swing. He's not called "Little Moe" for nothing.

Todd is an amazing ball striker and a good teacher. I saw him line up 5 range balls on a tee and walk down the tee line while hitting all five balls to a pin about 100 yards away. Never stopped walking, never stopped swinging. That part is no big deal -- heck, even Jim Flick can do that. However, Todd had the stripes on all five range balls oriented vertical -- so that the line would not wobble if you hit a pure putt. The big deal was that that he hit all five wedge shots straight at the pin -- with no wobble on the stripe! That, friends, was impressive.

 

[David Alford]

Todd has stated Moe used a conventional grip in his prime, the same grip Todd uses now. He also disputes Moe uses the Natural Golf grip that is being taught by NG and specifically has said Moe puts the club under the heel of his left hand. Todd also uses conventional clubs with regular grips and claims that is what Moe actually uses in private. I have seen one of Moe's clubs and it did not have a thick grip.

Ragman, holenone, and other disbelievers: go watch Todd hit balls as rwh and I have. Then come back here and say it's impossible. Or take a good analytical look at Moe's swing.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford


Moe and Todd Grave's left arm is on plane. Which is the red line, a straight line from clubhead to shoulder in all dimensions. It is not the yellow line.

Now you want to say "on plane" is "a straight line from clubhead to shoulder"?

Sure, it can be considered to be the red line at address. But, this plane is certainly the yellow line at the top of his backswing.

Which means this plane has shifted (and will need to shift again if he wants to make contact with the ball)....and negates the arguement that he swings on one single plane.

Of course, all of this is with your defintion of being "on plane".

quote: Now, your one escape is the modifier "essentially". I'm quite comfortable with it, and if you had an audience of 100 who looked at Todd Grave's video analysis, I'll bet 99 out of 100 would agree, it is a one axis plane.

To put this in perspective, hold your left arm as straight as possible. Is it straight or essentially straight? There is always a slight bend because of the way our arms are made, but jeeze, it is essentially straight.

Let me put it in a way even you can understand.

In regards to the swing plane, the club is either on-plane or it is not. The ball will tell you.

The ball does not care about "essentially" on plane or "basically" on plane. That is,of course, if you want the ball to go to the target.


As a sidenote, I care little for Todd Graves testimonials. I'm sure he hits the ball very well. You can swing that way if you desire. In my opinion, the way it ("single-axis" swing) is taught in some instances is very suspect.

 

[David Alford]

I'll agree the way single axis is taught is supsect "in some instances". Natural Golf has departed from reality, IMO. That doesn't subtract from the single axis reality of Moe Norman and Todd Grave's swing.

Yes, his ball flight speaks volumes as rwh has just described. I can hit the ball pretty solid with this swing, myself. The single axis swing will work if you do it correctly. Just watch the little white ball...

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

armourall, does HK describe how to successfully accomplish a one axis swing? I don't recall he did, other than brief mention of the single axis possibility. Todd Graves can and does.

David,

Does Mr. Kelley focus on the Single Axis method? No. He also doesn't focus on any of the other customizable options available, but I believe all of the components of the Single Axis procedure can be defined within the Golfing Machine terminology. (We've already mentioned the Zero Accumulator #3.) In other words, it is an option.

Now, whether or not that procedure has limitations is a debate I'm staying out of.

 

[David Alford]

armourall, yes, it could be defined with TGM terminology. Or one could just use conventional descriptions.

 

[cdog]

Wasn't the term "Single Axis" coined by Jack K, in fact didnt he get a patent or at least apply for one for the use of that term?
And isnt Jack's definition of the term Single axis to mean in line with the REAR forarm?

Ragman, thanks for posting the pics, when ever discussions are going on it's great to have pics to reference.

 

[DDL]

Keeping on my original topic, applying both extensor action and the right forearm pickup at the same time at startup doesn't seem possible with me. Sort of like clapping one's hands, the fanning motion Yoda describes, and reaching out to shake someone's hand at the same time. In order to immediately bend my right elbow at startup and apply extensor action, I have to pull my hands towards my right hip first, then subsequently do the right forearm pickup.

Will have to wait til Friday or Saturday to try this out. However, the path on the downstroke seems narrower and more downplane than the feeling I am used to, which was a more sweeping, borderline down the target line motion.

 

[ryantiff]

After I did the right forearm takeaway together with the turn, the club goes back and inside immediately. When I look at the video, 1) my hands position were not as high as before, just slightly above the head; 2) my right elbow feels very low and close to the body, but from the video is ok not as low as feel; 3) the left arm is in a flatter position due to the lower hands position and 4) coming down seems to be much easier. I was told by a friend instructor that this is the compact position: lower hands, also suggested can be lower further. Is this correct?

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by DDL

Keeping on my original topic, applying both extensor action and the right forearm pickup at the same time at startup doesn't seem possible with me. Sort of like clapping one's hands, the fanning motion Yoda describes, and reaching out to shake someone's hand at the same time. In order to immediately bend my right elbow at startup and apply extensor action, I have to pull my hands towards my right hip first, then subsequently do the right forearm pickup.

Will have to wait til Friday or Saturday to try this out. However, the path on the downstroke seems narrower and more downplane than the feeling I am used to, which was a more sweeping, borderline down the target line motion.

You might be focusing too much on the bending of the right elbow. For me, a more useful thought is that the right arm is trying to remain straight (i.e., extensor action), but the length of the left arm forces it to bend (checkrein). I think if you grab your trusty flashlight, apply extensor action, and simply trace the plane line, you'll discover the correct takeaway.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by armourall

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

armourall, does HK describe how to successfully accomplish a one axis swing? I don't recall he did, other than brief mention of the single axis possibility. Todd Graves can and does.

David,

Does Mr. Kelley focus on the Single Axis method? No. He also doesn't focus on any of the other customizable options available, but I believe all of the components of the Single Axis procedure can be defined within the Golfing Machine terminology. (We've already mentioned the Zero Accumulator #3.) In other words, it is an option.

Now, whether or not that procedure has limitations is a debate I'm staying out of.

As the term is/was used by Natural Golf, "Single Axis" means the shaft stays in line with the trail forearm. Here is a quote from the Natural Golf website:

"Single axis means that there is no major angle between the shaft and the dominant forearm".

It is possible because the grip is taken in the cup of the trail hand.

As defined above, "single axis" is a fundamental of the TGM concept known as the right flying wedge. All of Yoda's teachings and photos on the Chuck Evans' Forum and The Golfing Machine Forum were designed for us to learn to form and maintain the right forearm and clubshaft on the same plane -- which is why he had us lay the clubshaft and the right forearm on the table and observe that the club and forearm stay on the same plane during the back and forward motion.

We need to be careful to define terms because, to some, "Single Axis" refers to the clubshaft staying on the same plane throughout the swing. Defined in this way, it is what TGM refers to as "Zero Plane Shift".

I reviewed my Moe Norman tape last night of a clinic he gave for Dr. Jim Suttie. Moe discusses his palm grip -- in both hands -- and his large grips -- "more control". Peggy Kirk Bell is in attendance. After Moe shows how he takes the grip in the palms of his hands, a lady in the audience can be heard to say, "We just spent a whole week learning the other way." Dr. Suttie does a freeze frame analysis and draws a line up the clubshaft at address. Neither the club nor the right forearm nor the left arm ever left that plane line. Moe sets up with his left arm on plane which he accomplishes with a palm grip and by standing straight-legged, far from the ball, with a pronounced waist bend.

Anyway, the big deal -- and this is what I know Yoda teaches -- is for the clubshaft and the right forearm to be on-plane in the trail Flying Wedge. Yoda pointed out that Jack Nicklaus held his club that way in his right hand when he was standing behind the ball, visualizing his next stroke.

 

[denny.]

DDL----- Extensor is applied with pressure pt. 1 . Grab your left thumb now bend your rt. elbow while keeping your away from your rt. ear.
J.D Haas told me this story ---------------He told Ben Doyle that his(Jays)left arm was bending at the top. Ben grabbed Jay's left thumb and pulled it(exstensor action).

 

[David Alford]

rwh, let's move the one plane/axis to a separate topic. You observation is correct, Moe swings on one plane.

 

[DDL]

quote:Originally posted by denny.

DDL----- Extensor is applied with pressure pt. 1 . Grab your left thumb now bend your rt. elbow while keeping your away from your rt. ear.
J.D Haas told me this story ---------------He told Ben Doyle that his(Jays)left arm was bending at the top. Ben grabbed Jay's left thumb and pulled it(exstensor action).

Thanks den! All along I had been applying EA incorrectly.In stead of stretching/pulling the left thumb, I was pushing it down vertically. Below plane doesn't have to mean vertical, just not directly along the inclined plane.