johngolf33
New
When would you teach a student to use rotated shoulder plane instead of turned shoulder plane. Would a RSP tend to shourten the arm swing if someone is taking it back too far behind his head at the end of the backswing?
Rotated vs Turned shoulder plane
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
It depends, but I've heard of it as a drill to help reverse an in and over loop. Kinda Fred Couples style.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Scratch that, i thought he meant the squared shoulder turn.
golfbulldog
New
I think that you are mixing concepts a bit here... shoulder turn and plane angle In Homer Kelleys TGM catalogue system he has shoulder turn in 10-13 and Plane angle in 10-6. NO more book stuff now...
"Turned SHoulder plane "= the plane angle defined by the position of the right shoulder at the completion of backswing.
It should be compared with other plane angle options such as "Square shoulder plane"....
"Rotated shoulder Turn" plane describes the relationship between the spine angle and the plane of the shoulder turn. Rotated is 90 degrees to spine angle.
It should be compared with "Flat shoulder turn"
So if you rotate your shoulders on the backswing at 90 degrees to your spine angle... you are using Rotated shouder turn.... now look where your pp3 is at the top of the backswing.... if a line connecting pp3 and the ball passes through the right shoulder...then you are also using "Turned shoulder plane".... it is a subjective and individual measure...not an absolute measure of plane angle.
Many players use rotated shoulder turn AND turned shoulder plane angle.
johngolf33
New
Thanks! I guess what I really wanted was to compare 10-13-A to 10-13-C. If a player is taking the hands too much behind the head from the caddy view with a Standard Shoulder Turn does it make sense to use the Rotated Shoulder Turn to prevent the arms and hands from getting too wrapped around his head and losing Extensor Action? When I tried this the hands and arms were more upright and extended and less around and collapsed.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Absoultely, Babe. —Don Villavaso
Do I sometimes teach a golfer a more "rotated" shoulder turn, or is old Manzella a "flat" shoulder turn only teacher?
Lots of better players get their shoulder turn TOO FLAT.
When this happens, I ABSOLUTELY get them to have more HIP SLIDE and a MORE ROTATED Shoulder Turn.
This is the only way I fix this problem, but it IS one of the ways I do.
Sounds like you are on the right track, John.
Do I sometimes teach a golfer a more "rotated" shoulder turn, or is old Manzella a "flat" shoulder turn only teacher?
Lots of better players get their shoulder turn TOO FLAT.
When this happens, I ABSOLUTELY get them to have more HIP SLIDE and a MORE ROTATED Shoulder Turn.
This is the only way I fix this problem, but it IS one of the ways I do.
Sounds like you are on the right track, John.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Can someone *PLEASE* show me pictures of a flat shoulder turn and who does it on tour?
Unless it's just my eyes deceiving me, every great player i see has their shoulders 90* to their spine, essentially a tilted "T" which would make just about everyone using a rotated.
Pretty please show me pictures?
Unless it's just my eyes deceiving me, every great player i see has their shoulders 90* to their spine, essentially a tilted "T" which would make just about everyone using a rotated.
Pretty please show me pictures?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Jim, are you saying a flat shoulder turn is not 90 degrees to the spine? I thought it just meant the degree of tilt over the ball at the completion of the backswing.
johngolf33
New
Thanks Brian!
I tried it yesterday and was pleased to actually feel the shoulders have a stopping point from which the hips could fire and lead the shoulders and the shoulders could then lead the arms and club.
John
johngolf33
New
With a Rotated Shoulder Turn I feel as though I am staying more centered during my backswing (almost a reverse pivot). Should I try to have a little backswing slide to more fully load the right side before starting the downswing?
johngolf33
New
"When this happens, I ABSOLUTELY get them to have more HIP SLIDE and a MORE ROTATED Shoulder Turn."
If you get the player to have more HIP SLIDE I assume that is on the downswing? Do you have the player that uses a Rotated Shoulder Plane play the ball more forward in his stance to accommidate the added HIP SLIDE?
If you get the player to have more HIP SLIDE I assume that is on the downswing? Do you have the player that uses a Rotated Shoulder Plane play the ball more forward in his stance to accommidate the added HIP SLIDE?
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Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
no, he means more hip slide (rather than turn) in the BACKSWING.
Jim brings up an important point. Virtually all PGA tour golfers rotate their shoulders at right angles to their spine in the backswing, and they only differ because their spine angle at address differs.
Here is a comparison of David Toms, Ernie Els and Arnold Palmer. They all rotate their shoulders approximately 90 degrees to their spine. However, their shoulder turn angle relative to the ground varies because of their varying spine angles. Only Arnold Palmer has a situation where the shoulder turn angle and left arm angle at the end-backswing hits the ground very close to the ball - although they all have a similar left arm angle relative to the ground.
I think that it is biomechanically natural/physiological to turn one's shoulders at right angles to the spine. To do otherwise (use a flat shoulder turn) requires a special effort, and I have not seen professional golfers use a flat shoulder turn (defined as being relative to the spine angle and not ground).
Jeff.
Here is a comparison of David Toms, Ernie Els and Arnold Palmer. They all rotate their shoulders approximately 90 degrees to their spine. However, their shoulder turn angle relative to the ground varies because of their varying spine angles. Only Arnold Palmer has a situation where the shoulder turn angle and left arm angle at the end-backswing hits the ground very close to the ball - although they all have a similar left arm angle relative to the ground.
I think that it is biomechanically natural/physiological to turn one's shoulders at right angles to the spine. To do otherwise (use a flat shoulder turn) requires a special effort, and I have not seen professional golfers use a flat shoulder turn (defined as being relative to the spine angle and not ground).
Jeff.
Jim brings up an important point. Virtually all PGA tour golfers rotate their shoulders at right angles to their spine in the backswing, and they only differ because their spine angle at address differs.
Here is a comparison of David Toms, Ernie Els and Arnold Palmer. They all rotate their shoulders approximately 90 degrees to their spine. However, their shoulder turn angle relative to the ground varies because of their varying spine angles. Only Arnold Palmer has a situation where the shoulder turn angle and left arm angle at the end-backswing hits the ground very close to the ball - although they all have a similar left arm angle relative to the ground.
I think that it is biomechanically natural/physiological to turn one's shoulders at right angles to the spine. To do otherwise (use a flat shoulder turn) requires a special effort, and I have not seen professional golfers use a flat shoulder turn (defined as being relative to the spine angle and not ground).
Jeff.
To me, Toms looks like he has a Flat Shoulder turn, at least in this picture. Can Brian confirm which turn it is?
Jim brings up an important point. Virtually all PGA tour golfers rotate their shoulders at right angles to their spine in the backswing, and they only differ because their spine angle at address differs.
Here is a comparison of David Toms, Ernie Els and Arnold Palmer. They all rotate their shoulders approximately 90 degrees to their spine. However, their shoulder turn angle relative to the ground varies because of their varying spine angles. Only Arnold Palmer has a situation where the shoulder turn angle and left arm angle at the end-backswing hits the ground very close to the ball - although they all have a similar left arm angle relative to the ground.
I think that it is biomechanically natural/physiological to turn one's shoulders at right angles to the spine. To do otherwise (use a flat shoulder turn) requires a special effort, and I have not seen professional golfers use a flat shoulder turn (defined as being relative to the spine angle and not ground).
Jeff.
The pics are inconclusive. They have to be using identical club lengths to compare. The spine angle at address will effect the look of the shoulder turn.
johngolf33
New
If one uses a flat shoulder turn as does DT, is there a way to stop the hands at the Top so that they don't drift too far behind the head? I noticed that David's right forearm is about parallel to the spine angle, but Ernie and Arnie's right forearms are more vertical. Is that meaningful at all?
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rcw
New
Flexibility
Could just be due to the flexibility and the amount of external rotation of the right arm. More flexible you can achieve a more vertical right forearm. If you are limited in the trail shoulder and lat you will have a tendency to let the right arm go out a little more.
Then again some do have the flexibility and it is just habit or preference.
Could just be due to the flexibility and the amount of external rotation of the right arm. More flexible you can achieve a more vertical right forearm. If you are limited in the trail shoulder and lat you will have a tendency to let the right arm go out a little more.
Then again some do have the flexibility and it is just habit or preference.
birdie_man
New
DT.....Flat Shoulder Turn??
I think he's Rotated johngolf.
I think he's Rotated johngolf.
tongzilla
New
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