Ryder Cup Observations

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Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
Hi all,

I just spent my first day at the RC, and watched the practice session, and the Euros play the front nine. So,

On the practice range, I watched the Europeans mainly warm up, some just hit balls, some did drills, some did, well ...

1. Harrington....glove under each armpit, hitting balls, obviously does not want a whole lot of separation of upper arms from torso. He also hit balls working on turning/winding up his chest as much as possible. This included a pretty impressive one armed routine-left arm on right tricep...hover club over ball...windup/back to ball/windup/b-t-b/windup/smash...usually 250 yds. Then did the same routine with his left arm, with slightly less success;
2. Karlson...hit balls with mainly just a swing left through impact move(most of them do). He posed positions periodically-half back/top/half down/impact. He also worked on Manzella Mid Sole pitch shots with just his right hand;
3. Poulter..allignment + ball position sticks. He is laid off at the top, and hits push shots(5 degrees) pretty straight. He hit some putts, and I noticed a little head lean to the right which may explain his pushes(look for them with his putting!)
4. Sergio...by far the best Euro ball striker, maybe the best there! No tinkering, long, hit lots of different shots;
5. Casey...worked with his teacher...used bungee cords attached from the arm, just above the elbow, to the opposite hip. Again, he is trying for a 'connected' feel, but I question his 'aid'. This is where I am interested in people's views of training aids that kind of make you do what you want to, rather than making it more difficult, which, IMO, would force you to recruit the appropriate muscles and make you work a little harder to do whatever it is you are trying to do;
6. Stenson...looked a bit flippy to me...he worked on a wide right arm on the downswing feel, as well as a shortened pivot on the follow through;

The watched 4 Euros lined up doing their chipping...all the same:-
1. Narrow stances
2. Weight 50/50
3. Club passing hands through impact in a mid sole manner with a mild pivot assist

In all the pitch and chips and bunker play that I saw today, there were NO clubs up the left arm in the follow through, NO torque on the club from the arms.

From the US standpoint, I did not watch them play, and only got to see a couple of them putt:-
1. Campbell...looked awful...bad posture, flippy, inconsistent speed control, random way of practising
2. As much as I think CC will be a liability on the greens, Ben Curtis will be great-his stroke/speed is one to watch, as is Stricker's.
 
N

nwb

New
really interesting thanks - can someone explain this to me please or point me to where i can find out more - cheers

"In all the pitch and chips and bunker play that I saw today, there were NO clubs up the left arm in the follow through, NO torque on the club from the arms".
 
2mongoose

2mongoose

New
Swinging Left

Damon,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on all this connected and synchronized arms w/ torso business vs. swinging your arms from the sockets. It seems helluva lot easier to let your unwinding core "hit it" and just let impact get in the way. Is this any different than "snapping the chain?" When I think about "snapping the chain" I think of a bigger move right in the backswing, more pivot lag and arms that are thrown off the chest in preparation for impact.....

Shoot some holes in my ideas please!

there were NO clubs up the left arm in the follow through, NO torque on the club from the arms.
Click to expand...

You mean like this?

benhogandt3.jpg
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
2mongoose said:
Damon,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on all this connected and synchronized arms w/ torso business vs. swinging your arms from the sockets. It seems helluva lot easier to let your unwinding core "hit it" and just let impact get in the way. Is this any different than "snapping the chain?" When I think about "snapping the chain" I think of a bigger move right in the backswing, more pivot lag and arms that are thrown off the chest in preparation for impact.....

Shoot some holes in my ideas please!



You mean like this?

benhogandt3.jpg
Click to expand...
Hogan swung from his shoulder sockets, no question about that. There's no conflict between "synchronised" and swinging from the sockets.
 
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D

Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
2nd day

Well guys, the US team did real well today.
Some of my thoughts from today....
Karlson and Stenson should have been benched before the end of the morning round-they were awful!
Sergio is the best ball striker there, although Boo is pretty pure.
Mickelson was the standout today-he dragged AK through the first match(little help from the crowd)
Was surprised to see Perry sit the PM matches,
Curtis is pure with the flatstick, and getting a bit better with his swing,
Stricker was solid and should have played the morning,
Boo and JB got a LOT of crowd support-I hate both of their putting ensembles,
Leonard and Mahan were huge-Mahan has a Sergio-like swing, and putts great, Leonard looks like he knows exactly what he can and can't do(Perry too), and does it,
Campbell did not look good, especially with the putter...but a GREAT shot into 18 in the morning,
Cink is boring.

With regard to the connection questions, I think that it gets over done.
The worst culprits today were Stenson, Karlson and Casey, and I don't think Harrington was far behind. They spend a whole lot of time trying to hit certain positions(for the line drawers), as well as 'a' concept of how to swing, RATHER than a combination of what they do naturally, what produces a preferred ball flight, and good biomechanics.

Stick around Brian's site, fellas. This site, and Brian, is intent on providing the best solutions, the most customised patterns for each individual, as well as the highest levels of innovation to get you there fast!

Back to the connection stuff. It is attractive because it probably produces a bit more consistency, and less wild shots, and if you are really in shape, a pretty good move.
It has it's pitfalls in 'feel' discussions, in leveraging and chain discussions, and in 'what's natural for the player' discussions.

The pitch and chip shot query...there is a school of thought that suggests that the hands should stay ahead of the club through, and post, impact, such that at your follow through, the club is inline with your left arm. But NO-ONE does it at the tour level. Why?
 
T

twitch127

New
The pitch and chip shot query...there is a school of thought that suggests that the hands should stay ahead of the club through, and post, impact, such that at your follow through, the club is inline with your left arm. But NO-ONE does it at the tour level. Why?
Click to expand...

This shaft up the left arm will help 90% of amateurs because so many of them flip it and can't control low point. Tour players use more of the 'mid-sole' approach because they sustain the true loft of the club. This allows the ball to come out higher with a bit more spin and fly directly at the target and not 5 yards right which is what a bunch of shaft lean will give you. Bearing in mind these guys are playing on greens that usually run between 11-13 on the stimp most weeks.

I know westwood has worked on this with Mark Roe - all it really is - mid body hands, and in Lee's case a vertical hinge action. He has improved on distance and spin control because he is no longer trying to slash across the ball to sustain the loft.

I agree that connection is overplayed. Will work for some but look at what happened to Phil and Ernie when they got the Butch treatment - connected and short backswings - they don't look as good - If you notice Phils' swing ain't lookin to short this week and he is hitting his irons a lot better.
 
D

Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
twitch127 said:
This shaft up the left arm will help 90% of amateurs because so many of them flip it and can't control low point. Tour players use more of the 'mid-sole' approach because they sustain the true loft of the club. This allows the ball to come out higher with a bit more spin and fly directly at the target and not 5 yards right which is what a bunch of shaft lean will give you. Bearing in mind these guys are playing on greens that usually run between 11-13 on the stimp most weeks.

I agree!
I have watched Brian teach with this-you basically work with what you don't have, on one level. Then you work around what you use, in your full swing or otherwise. Finally at the elite level, you understand what you do and work around it.
Click to expand...
 
H

HowardK

New
DAMON

I THINK I SPEAK...FOR A LOT OF US.....WHEN I SAY HOW MUCH I APPRECIATE YOUR OBSERVATIONS......FROM THE RYDER CUP.....VERY INTERESTING STUFF..........IF YOU RUN INTO ZINGER....TELL HIM HOWARD FROM SARASOTA SAID........U DA MAN ZING....

HJ
 
lia41985

lia41985

New member
Damon,
I wanted to echo Howard in thanking you for your insights. I wanted to ask what yours or Brian's impressions have been of Lee Westwood. He looks like the best ball-striker out there this week, and he has a snappy look in his swing that surprised me. How do you see it?
 
J

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Connection may be overdone, I agree. However, I love how left all of those guys swing. Not dissimilar at all from what Brian has taught me. Swing across that left leg and snap it.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
Damon Lucas said:
Sergio is the best ball striker there, although Boo is pretty pure.
Click to expand...
Doesn't take a genius to realise that they both have:
1) more forward lean of clubshaft at impact than normal.
2) more accumulator lag than normal.

Before people start debating, I'm not saying you have to have these things to play well. But could that be one of the reasons why they hit it so pure (especially irons)? Another thing to note is that the more of 1) and 2) one has, the harder it is to control low point and clubface in my opinion. But they can somehow manage it. Hmm...maybe not everyone should strive for "pure ball striking", but strive for "hit-it-where-I-want-the-ball-to-go" instead.
 
S

smatts

New
tongzilla said:
Doesn't take a genius to realise that they both have:
1) more forward lean of clubshaft at impact than normal.
2) more accumulator lag than normal.

Before people start debating, I'm not saying you have to have these things to play well. But could that be one of the reasons why they hit it so pure (especially irons)? Another thing to note is that the more of 1) and 2) one has, the harder it is to control low point and clubface in my opinion. But they can somehow manage it. Hmm...maybe not everyone should strive for "pure ball striking", but strive for "hit-it-where-I-want-the-ball-to-go" instead.
Click to expand...

I've noticed that at times Sergio hits it fat under pressure. I don't know if this has anything to do with your assertion that they have a harder to control low point.
 
W

welshdentist

New
tongzilla said:
Doesn't take a genius to realise that they both have:
1) more forward lean of clubshaft at impact than normal.
2) more accumulator lag than normal.

Before people start debating, I'm not saying you have to have these things to play well. But could that be one of the reasons why they hit it so pure (especially irons)? Another thing to note is that the more of 1) and 2) one has, the harder it is to control low point and clubface in my opinion. But they can somehow manage it. Hmm...maybe not everyone should strive for "pure ball striking", but strive for "hit-it-where-I-want-the-ball-to-go" instead.
Click to expand...

Good point Leo,

My wife doesn't "strike it" as well as she would like but is VERY straight.

Better she strikes it the less accurate she is.....

Very interesting :cool:
 
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