SAM PuttLab etc

[Dan44GT]

Unfortunately, I do not run the lab. My situation is very different, the club specialists (clubfitters) acquired the system from the sales rep in our area that they work with on a regular basis. The rep is also a mini-tour player. They (clubfitters) have also worked out deals between SAM and asian equipment companies. As an academy, we use it to entice members and hotel guests by doing complimentary evaluations. We also implement it in private lesson series and golf schools if necessary. We have a SAM Putt Lab lesson package, but I honestly dont promote the package as it could be overkill on the machine. Hope this helps.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Any SAM labs around Louisville?

SAM Sports: Locations

I would also e-mail them. They have some SAM Labs not listed on there. I know that for a fact.




3JACK

 

[siksta]

Normal Sam 8k special one with video and software 16k and only making a limite number of special ones. Normal fee $ 80 per hr. Only 2 special SAM'S in Atl.

 

[mb6606]

Any update on the Brian's endorsed putting aid the Sheriff??? Anyone using it?

 

[Steve Hale]

2 Conclusions I have come to,

1) Its better to be consistent than technically sound
2) Face trumps path by a bunch
and a 3rd for the heck of it) Rise angle should be greater than predicted launch.

So the million dollar question; how do you teach/learn consistency? Does anyone know if there have been any scientific studies on how to achieve consistency of motion, both in full swing and putting? How would you teach repeatability of kinematics?

 

[cjgolf]

So the million dollar question; how do you teach/learn consistency? Does anyone know if there have been any scientific studies on how to achieve consistency of motion, both in full swing and putting? How would you teach repeatability of kinematics?

Now you are talking.

Can it even be taught?

Or

Must it be learned? if so how?

Now if we could crack that one there would be a lot more happy campers.

 

[vjsinger]

Now you are talking.

Can it even be taught?

Or

Must it be learned? if so how?

Now if we could crack that one there would be a lot more happy campers.

Yep it can be taught and learned..there are alot of good teachers out there teaching it. Brian, we are waiting for the short game video from your perspective.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Absolutely.

Loren Roberts is a perfect example. His 'technique' has some concerning flaws and he actually was shown to cut across the ball. Even worse, his clubface was 1.0* closed at address. However, his consistency scores were superb and his face at impact was 0.0*. Combine that with his ability to read greens and develop speed/touch, it's no wonder why he's the Boss of the Moss.

Here's the pdf for Roberts' SAM Puttlab report. It's not bad by any means, but for a guy who is such a historically great putter I was surprised that it didn't meet my expectations.

http://www.samsports.us/PuttLab Data/LorenRoberts.pdf




3JACK

For those

Richie,

What exactly 'concerned' you? What parameters do you think are important?
And do you really think that 5 putts on one report taken by a human who may have set the machine up incorrectly define a guy who has consistently been a great putter? Pretty naive statement there, IMO!

 

[vjsinger]

Richie,

What exactly 'concerned' you? What parameters do you think are important?
And do you really think that 5 putts on one report taken by a human who may have set the machine up incorrectly define a guy who has consistently been a great putter? Pretty naive statement there, IMO!

Hmmm????

 

[Dan44GT]

correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the major reasons golf teachers teach is to create more consistency, thus producing less big numbers and lower total scores.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Richie,

What exactly 'concerned' you? What parameters do you think are important?
And do you really think that 5 putts on one report taken by a human who may have set the machine up incorrectly define a guy who has consistently been a great putter? Pretty naive statement there, IMO!

Having a putterface 1.0* closed at address is a big enough concern alone. Somebody like myself would have a hard time getting around that and would wind up probably having a closed putterface at impact. But Roberts is able to keep the putterface perfectly square to the target at impact, which is what really matters, big time. He also 'cuts across' the ball slightly. Again, that's usually a problem for most golfers, but it works for Loren.

I wouldn't change Loren's techniques because it's obviously working for him and it's easy to understand what happens for him in order for him to make putts. But somebody else I believe would most likely struggle.

Not knowing a lot about the machine setup, I'm not so sure. Obviously the sample size of the putts taken wouldn't sniff anything called 'credible research.' And obviously there could be human error involved. But I wonder what type of human error could be involved to show a 1.0* closed face at address and then a 0.0* face at impact. Sounds like a classic case of a golfer who cuts across the ball to some degree and in Roberts' case, he is just superb at doing it.





3JACK

 

[Dan44GT]

I have that same report on the system I use and here is my take on it. Just assumption, not fact. I would imagine that the person testing Loren Roberts has some credibility and knowledge on how to calibrate the system. He wouldn't entrust just anybody with his stroke, unless of course he was the one being sought out for the data and he did not care much about the results. That said, 1* is not earthshattering and if you bump the laser at the wrong time during calibration and/or set the laser off center, and/or angle the laser incorrectly, it could all add up to almost a degree of variance. Also, depends how long of a putt he measured, I do 12 feet and from 12 feet the edge of the cup is .7 degrees off center. If you measure from 6 feet and miscalibrate outside left center, all of a sudden you could be off a full degree. Like I said, if it was me, and I was testing/measuring "The Boss of the Moss", I would make sure my calibration was correct.

I'd like to know what Brian's take on the SAM Putt is, I know he has some knowledge of it from talking to one of his peers.

 

[vjsinger]

How do you make sure the calibration is correct, so you can avoid human error? In my estimation 1 degree off on a 12 foot putt could be pretty substantial.

 

[Dan44GT]

You're right, 1 degree off is a missed putt (unless you get the speed or read wrong). Good question, the things I will look for is of course the results of the actual putt if you know your surface, also impact spot on face, and spikes in graphs. If it is more than one degree, you as the teacher see on the screen exactly where the face is aimed at all times and if that does not match up with your eye, you can put the laser back on it to see if the calibration is set correctly. To answer your question, if I had Loren Roberts in for a session, I would calibrate it, then check again with the laser and make sure it was accurate with the screen readout. Other things like setting the unit too far from the ball or not at right angles, or setting the triplet (measuring device) at a bad height will lead to poor numbers, but they will be noticeable when reading the reports because of spikes and ball marks that aren't even on the face. Hope this helps

 

[birdie_man]

It's based on the metrics of your stroke. Like if you have an arced stroke and your clubface is open say 5.3* at the end of the backstroke and closed say 5.2* at the finish and say 0.2* open at impact, you'd probably get a very good 'quality' score.

Like I said, they have their own subjective parameters. But you don't really need to use their parameters and 'quality' score to have the SAM Puttlab to be a useful tool. At the time I used it I was struggling with my putting poorly. I was 1.0* open at address. Then 9.1* open at the end of the backstroke, then 0.4* open at impact, an then 1.9* closed at finish. Essentially I was mix-matching the components. I had a very arced backstroke, but a very SBST thrustroke. So I had to decide whether I wanted a complete arced stroke or a complete SBST stroke. Also, needed to find out why my putterface was aligned to the right of the target at address.

I wouldn't say it's as great as Trackman in relation to what it does for putting, but it' a FANTASTIC tool and I would have one if I could afford it.



3JACK

Cool man.

That Roberts PDF is REALLY neat BTW.

Of course, the danger is the temptation to start 'chasing' numbers.

Makes sense.

What I've discovered about stroke path/shape is that the two main schools (arc and sbst) don't really exist among good putters. I've yet to see a stroke with a symmetrical arc like the products folks train with (Learning Curve, Putting Arc, etc). I've seen just a couple near perfect straight lines, but very few, and they nearly always have face rotation.

I'm with you mg.

The names no doubt are bogus if taken literally. Golf needs much more clarity.

The most common path trait that good putters share is that they all have a flat spot (straight line) through impact. An ISDL (inside straight down the line) path is pretty common as well.

Path (clubhead orbit) or plane line? I am not sure I understand. An image would help if you could produce one somehow.

My personal use for the system is based off green reading. Like most, I'm a natural left aimer, so I use it to constantly monitor that I'm aiming correctly.

I had no idea most people do this. Even most good golfers? (I know you are very good) Any idea why?

Good info mg.

For those of you that use it, notice that they dont have a guideline for length of stroke or speed at impact.

I suppose it is because it is an individual thing?

2 Conclusions I have come to,

1) Its better to be consistent than technically sound
2) Face trumps path by a bunch
and a 3rd for the heck of it) Rise angle should be greater than predicted launch.

Very cool. The Bottom Line. (presuming you are right) I like it.

Thanks Dan.

 

[birdie_man]

Do people who control the clubface like Roberts (less rotation back and through) tend to setup with the face a little closed...

VS. people who open and close the face more perhaps doing the opposite? (setting up with the face a little open)

 

[Steve Hale]

correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the major reasons golf teachers teach is to create more consistency, thus producing less big numbers and lower total scores.

Of course. But I have been to many different teachers, and the lesson has ALWAYS revolved around changing my motion. Your data suggests this may be the worst thing to do, at least in putting, because consistency of stroke trumps a more efficient motion. Never has anyone taught repeatability of motion, unless you count having them tell you to hit a million shots. IMO repetitions are just one component of being able to repeat a motion, there's also the mental aspect, desire, time, ect.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Do people who control the clubface like Roberts (less rotation back and through) tend to setup with the face a little closed...

VS. people who open and close the face more perhaps doing the opposite? (setting up with the face a little open)

I would think the opposite if anything. But there probably is no correlation. The numbers in a recent putting study had 55% of golfers aiming closed, 25% aiming open, and 20% aiming straight from 6 feet out.




3JACK

 

[magic43]

Would have been interesting to have been able to have Bobby Locke do a session on the Puttlab. IIRC, he pretty much hooked all his putts from a very closed stance. Very consistent and just unbelievable feel for distance control.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Would have been interesting to have been able to have Bobby Locke do a session on the Puttlab. IIRC, he pretty much hooked all his putts from a very closed stance. Very consistent and just unbelievable feel for distance control.

He really didn't hook his putts. That's a bit of a misnomer mainly because he hooked everything else. He was so good at hooking the ball I had a pro tell me that he saw Locke hook a 100 yard, downhill bunker shot.

There's a Gary Player video on YouTube where he talks about the Locke stroke, noting that he didn't hook his putts.



3JACK