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Sequence - need more rotation through the ball
- Thread starter willimatic
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Lindsey Newman
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you're going to go that way with pitch elbow an an aggressive pivot, be prepared to strengthen your grip. Very few have been able to grip it as you do and add the components that ej20 is suggesting - Hogan being one
Dont need a strong grip with pitch elbow if you've seen Lag over at ABS forum he has one of the best post impact pivots around and it dosent require a strong grip.To increase the pivot rotation if thats what this thread is about you must train the pivot which could take awhile and he must fire faster than the hands fire into the ball.
Pich elbow is also forearm rotation unless i missread Lindsey on what she was refferng to?
#1 I am male.
#2 anything is possible.
Thank you for your one example of a great ball striker with a neutral grip who can play with max pivot and pitch elbow. I had already stated that there have been some who can do it. Obviously, one can twist the shaft about itself and play with the said combination. The player who started this thread is looking for help has issues with an overzealous and possibly mis-used pivot. Curious to me, how exactly would you help someone get into pitch elbow, that has a runaway pivot and is under plane hit quality golf shots?
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Lindsey Newman
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Lindsey,
I'm finding that it really doesn't work this way for me. When I try hard to shove my hands down more vertically, I find that I get underplane with lots of fats and divots that point way too far to the right. Any idea why that might be? I think the hip thrust willimatic refers to above might be the culprit.
As a refresher, below is a video of my swing:
YouTube - CIMG0211 2
I would look at what the shaft it doing. Is it under all the way down? You may have to feel it steepening. Are your hands tracking back to the inside enough on the through swing?
Lindsey,
I'm finding that it really doesn't work this way for me. When I try hard to shove my hands down more vertically, I find that I get underplane with lots of fats and divots that point way too far to the right. Any idea why that might be? I think the hip thrust willimatic refers to above might be the culprit.
As a refresher, below is a video of my swing:
YouTube - CIMG0211 2
Lifter: I'm assuming ur grip is fairly strong because I see a little cup in the left wrist and the club face is still closed. And it appears ur path is pretty inside out. What might help is an earlier shoulder rotation in the downswing not a hip driven thought. Might help you get out from under and help u swing the club more left coming thru. Worth a try. One of my really good players was helped by that move..
willimatic
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I read through the Sergio/tumble thread late last week and it got me thinking. I know I asked about sequencing but I think part of the issue was my sequencing was getting my club to under plane. After reading through the other thread I realized I may need to get a more vertical hand path coming down.
Back to what Lindsey said earlier in this thread about worrying more about what the club is doing and pivot second, I went out and hit balls a few times over the weekend. I focused on the tumble and getting the club on the other side of my hands via a more vertical hand drop. Hit the ball REALLY good two days in a row, and for the first time I could really feel using my right arm and firing it. Also without the fear of hooking.
So, a little off topic but still goes a long with sequence and I guess for me learning that I have to focus on my arms as well. I guess a pivot isn't going to get your hands to move more vertical on the way down by itself, at least for me.
Back to what Lindsey said earlier in this thread about worrying more about what the club is doing and pivot second, I went out and hit balls a few times over the weekend. I focused on the tumble and getting the club on the other side of my hands via a more vertical hand drop. Hit the ball REALLY good two days in a row, and for the first time I could really feel using my right arm and firing it. Also without the fear of hooking.
So, a little off topic but still goes a long with sequence and I guess for me learning that I have to focus on my arms as well. I guess a pivot isn't going to get your hands to move more vertical on the way down by itself, at least for me.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Good stuff, willimatic. If you cannot use your right hand aggresively without fear of hooking, you need precisely what you described. Im sure im gonna get my balls busted for saying this, but as far as things that apply to golf, this is as close to the true "secret of golf" that ive come across. Pivot, shape, sequencing, etc, can be found in other sports and activities and are of extreme importance to strike the ball well and i would never pooh-pooh them. Its just that what you discovered is the real key that separates the good, bad, and so forth.
Lindsey and DCgolf, your comments resonate so much with what I was working on on the range yesterday. Below are a couple videos from that session. In the first video, the clubhead comes down a hair below the shaft plane. In the second video, the clubhead comes down a hair above the shaft plane.
YouTube - CIMG0237 2
YouTube - CIMG0235 2
The first thing I worked on was exactly what Lindsey was talking about: shoving my right hand low and left through impact. That really helped my underplane issue. So it appears that achieving tumble is not as simple as just vertical hand path during and after transition.
DCgolf, your comments really intrigue me. Another thing I worked on that helped was trying to get my entire torso (both shoulders and hips) pointed at the target by impact. I think rotation is critical for allowing the hands to move in-to-in rather than in-to-out.
DCgolf's comments relate very much to these points. DCgolf, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying that my fundamental issue is that my hips are sliding rather than rotating. And you think my hips might be sliding because my grip is too strong. Correct?
Your point about a shoulder-driven rather than a hip-driven thought is very intriguing. I've never heard of anything like that before. At impact, aren't both my hips and shoulders more closed than they should be? Shouldn't both face the target more at impact (like all the pros achieve)?
I don't quite grasp why I should strive to have less hip rotation rather than more. Also, if I do try your suggested move of earlier shoulder rotation, should I try to have steeper shoulders through the ball or flatter shoulders at impact (relative to where they are now)?
YouTube - CIMG0237 2
YouTube - CIMG0235 2
The first thing I worked on was exactly what Lindsey was talking about: shoving my right hand low and left through impact. That really helped my underplane issue. So it appears that achieving tumble is not as simple as just vertical hand path during and after transition.
DCgolf, your comments really intrigue me. Another thing I worked on that helped was trying to get my entire torso (both shoulders and hips) pointed at the target by impact. I think rotation is critical for allowing the hands to move in-to-in rather than in-to-out.
DCgolf's comments relate very much to these points. DCgolf, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying that my fundamental issue is that my hips are sliding rather than rotating. And you think my hips might be sliding because my grip is too strong. Correct?
Your point about a shoulder-driven rather than a hip-driven thought is very intriguing. I've never heard of anything like that before. At impact, aren't both my hips and shoulders more closed than they should be? Shouldn't both face the target more at impact (like all the pros achieve)?
I don't quite grasp why I should strive to have less hip rotation rather than more. Also, if I do try your suggested move of earlier shoulder rotation, should I try to have steeper shoulders through the ball or flatter shoulders at impact (relative to where they are now)?
If it helps, below is a face-on view of my swing from three days ago. I was working on shoving my right hand low and left right after impact. Was not working on hip or shoulder rotation here.
YouTube - CIMG0233 2
YouTube - CIMG0233 2
willimatic
New
Good stuff, willimatic. If you cannot use your right hand aggresively without fear of hooking, you need precisely what you described. Im sure im gonna get my balls busted for saying this, but as far as things that apply to golf, this is as close to the true "secret of golf" that ive come across. Pivot, shape, sequencing, etc, can be found in other sports and activities and are of extreme importance to strike the ball well and i would never pooh-pooh them. Its just that what you discovered is the real key that separates the good, bad, and so forth.
Kevin, it is a great feeling. Im a pretty descent golfer and I've never had this type of feeling and control.
I posted a long while back about poor wedge play and how it was the worst part of my game. Hated how I could hit a driver and longer irons well but mishit wedges like crazy. This tumble move let me hit some of the best wedge shots ever. The trajectory control I had was great. I guess a tumble move is better than an underplane down arch for most, def for me.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Lifter, a tumble move is definatley more than just a vertical inside handpath. The ACTUAL tumble happens when the hands move left after the drop.....tips the club over
Lifter, a tumble move is definatley more than just a vertical inside handpath. The ACTUAL tumble happens when the hands move left after the drop.....tips the club over
Lindsey originally said that "Many times, if we as athletes, just focus on controlling what our hands are holding, we will see that are pivot responds beautifully." But it appears that there's more to it than just that.
Seems to me that this is a chicken-and-egg deal. A better hand path will help promote a better pivot. But a better pivot will also promote a better hand path. When I try to shove my hands down vertically, I get significantly underplane. To me, this indicates that I need to work primarily on my pivot (and possibly flexibility training) rather than my hand path.
Lindsey and DCgolf, your comments resonate so much with what I was working on on the range yesterday. Below are a couple videos from that session. In the first video, the clubhead comes down a hair below the shaft plane. In the second video, the clubhead comes down a hair above the shaft plane.
YouTube - CIMG0237 2
YouTube - CIMG0235 2
The first thing I worked on was exactly what Lindsey was talking about: shoving my right hand low and left through impact. That really helped my underplane issue. So it appears that achieving tumble is not as simple as just vertical hand path during and after transition.
DCgolf, your comments really intrigue me. Another thing I worked on that helped was trying to get my entire torso (both shoulders and hips) pointed at the target by impact. I think rotation is critical for allowing the hands to move in-to-in rather than in-to-out.
DCgolf's comments relate very much to these points. DCgolf, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're saying that my fundamental issue is that my hips are sliding rather than rotating. And you think my hips might be sliding because my grip is too strong. Correct?
Your point about a shoulder-driven rather than a hip-driven thought is very intriguing. I've never heard of anything like that before. At impact, aren't both my hips and shoulders more closed than they should be? Shouldn't both face the target more at impact (like all the pros achieve)?
I don't quite grasp why I should strive to have less hip rotation rather than more. Also, if I do try your suggested move of earlier shoulder rotation, should I try to have steeper shoulders through the ball or flatter shoulders at impact (relative to where they are now)?
Yes. i have found that thinking of ONLY lower body rotation, can still allow the arms and club to work inside and under. Whereas with a more concerted effort to turn tour UPPER body through, you carry the club further left and keeps yours arms stay UP through impact allowing them to work more left. Your inside-out/under move seems to be a result of a closed face at the top due to possibly a strong grip, but the torso opening will slow the closing and create a more left path. I have students who really like to upper body turn thru move...
Yes. i have found that thinking of ONLY lower body rotation, can still allow the arms and club to work inside and under. Whereas with a more concerted effort to turn tour UPPER body through, you carry the club further left and keeps yours arms stay UP through impact allowing them to work more left. Your inside-out/under move seems to be a result of a closed face at the top due to possibly a strong grip, but the torso opening will slow the closing and create a more left path. I have students who really like to upper body turn thru move...
and yes BOTH should open more...
Yes. i have found that thinking of ONLY lower body rotation, can still allow the arms and club to work inside and under. Whereas with a more concerted effort to turn tour UPPER body through, you carry the club further left and keeps yours arms stay UP through impact allowing them to work more left. Your inside-out/under move seems to be a result of a closed face at the top due to possibly a strong grip, but the torso opening will slow the closing and create a more left path. I have students who really like to upper body turn thru move...
Thanks, DCgolf! One last thing: should I try to have steeper shoulders through impact or flatter shoulders through impact (relative to where they are now)?
Your inside-out/under move seems to be a result of a closed face at the top due to possibly a strong grip, but the torso opening will slow the closing and create a more left path. I have students who really like to upper body turn thru move...
To add to the threadjack... It looks to me like Lifter can weaken his grip a lot more so he can square the clubface and swivel the hands better instead of having a hold off winged left arm or as you say with the strong grip he has to use the upper body turn and hold the face square to prevent the ball going left.
Thanks, DCgolf! One last thing: should I try to have steeper shoulders through impact or flatter shoulders through impact (relative to where they are now)?
Of the two id say flatter; higher right side, more carry. a steeper shoulder turn with lower right side will promote more of what you're trying to avoid. IMHO...
Of the two id say flatter; higher right side, more carry. a steeper shoulder turn with lower right side will promote more of what you're trying to avoid. IMHO...
Where can I learn more about "The Carry"? Is it discussed at all in NHA 2.0 (I own that video)? Are any other videos recommended for my particular swing issues?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I know this is willimatics thread but why do you think you need more roation and carry??? That would force you to stand the club up even more to hit it.
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