Sequenced release

[Damon Lucas]

Care to qualify that, maybe with some photo evidence.....

Puttmad,

Why don't you qualify your assertion? With some photo evidence!!

I think Brian has earned the right not to have to respond to every statement made.

Put up a decent argument, with photograhic(or better still 3D) evidence, and I'm sure Brian will respond in kind.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

With regard the sequenced release, is is almost the opposite?

The term sequenced release relates to the wristcock motion preceding the roll. The only other option would be a simultaneous release as all other options are discounted by anatomical restrictions.

Having the left wrist bent to the degree that the left arm goes into the inclined plane from above in its turned state allows the motion of the wristcock to be onplane. That means that the uncocking motion can happen before the roll of the left hand starts. Having the left wrist bent to this exact degree by adapting the wrist conditions to the displacement of the club does allow a sequenced release but does not mandate it.

However, for teaching purposes, you have to start to question the usefulness of telling someone the concept of sequenced release. If I was to teach someone the release motions of the left hand/wrist, I would just tell them to do a simultaneous release as they really don't need to know all this shhhhtuff....

 

[HowardK]

Sorry Damon

This is Brians site.....people come here to learn.

to answer a question with a response of "baloney" is way below Brian......Brian is very smart, and this site is good for many reasons, but to answer as he did cheapens all of it..

Damon? if you were giving a lesson and You said something to a student and he didnt do it right.....would you say that sucks??? or try to show him by demo the right way....

I in no way write this to hurt anyone.....just to make a point.....we all of us need Brians help.........he has the knowledge we have the questions...

hjack

 

[softconsult]

Why is saying what you mean wrong? Cheapens the site?

I feel just the opposite. I'm up to here with Political Correctness, and Kumbaya. "Baloney" is clear communication.

Why should Brian drop everything, and write a detailed response?

 

[curtisj76]

to answer a question with a response of "baloney" is way below Brian......

Last time I checked, "baloney" is Brian's FAVORITE response to BS. Just say'n.

 

[welshdentist]

The term sequenced release relates to the wristcock motion preceding the roll. The only other option would be a simultaneous release as all other options are discounted by anatomical restrictions.

Having the left wrist bent to the degree that the left arm goes into the inclined plane from above in its turned state allows the motion of the wristcock to be onplane. That means that the uncocking motion can happen before the roll of the left hand starts. Having the left wrist bent to this exact degree by adapting the wrist conditions to the displacement of the club does allow a sequenced release but does not mandate it.

However, for teaching purposes, you have to start to question the usefulness of telling someone the concept of sequenced release. If I was to teach someone the release motions of the left hand/wrist, I would just tell them to do a simultaneous release as they really don't need to know all this shhhhtuff....

Thanks for the clarification. I like to understand, but I never EVER want think about it hitting a shot.

I have to say to Brian that I thought the section on sequenced release was very good in BB's, but in the way that it highlights the different motions.....

Wrist uncock,roll, right arm straightening and pivot. Maybe that could stay but with the premise you can practice the feel of each individually but it all feels like it happens at once?

 

[Michael Finney]

didn't Mathew film a video on this very explanation? just sayin

 

[curtisj76]

He had some youtube's but I think he took them off. I'm sure he can clarify.

 

[puttmad]

Puttmad,

Why don't you qualify your assertion? With some photo evidence!!

I think Brian has earned the right not to have to respond to every statement made.

Put up a decent argument, with photograhic(or better still 3D) evidence, and I'm sure Brian will respond in kind.

However you achieve it, at the top (or just after) you have a full lag condition ( a fully radially flexed left wrist)..
As you pivot down (around) the left wrist is driven towards the ball heel-first.

That heel-first motion ( harpooning or karate chopping) keeps the back of the left hand facing the target line and the right inner forearm facing skywards…and any turning of the left forearm, relative to the target line, is due to the pivot….

Good players retain that position until very late in the downswing, as you can see from Mike’s pic below, or have a look at Ernie’s swing sequence…
Both have the back of the left hand facing the target line almost until their hands are at impact position….

However, looking at Mike’s first pic below, you will see as his hands approach impact he is beginning to lose the lag angle, while the heel of his left hand is still pointing at the target, and the only way that lag angle can be lost is by the left wrist releasing….note that at this point there is still no left forearm rotation (compare it with the second pic)….

In pic 1, if Mike were to roll the left forearm without any more wrist uncocking the clubhead would be way above plane....that's all I was saying before..

Therefore, as I stated earlier, the left wrist un-cock situation happens fractionally (timewise -from top to impact is only 1/3 second) before the left forearm rolls to square the club face…

Of course it is a blended motion during the swing, but the left wrist release does come slightly ahead of the roll..

If you can explain it any differently, please go ahead…

.

 

[holeout]

…and any turning of the left forearm, relative to the target line, is due to the pivot….

Not sure why, but this just doesn't sound quite right. I can turn or roll my left forearm completely independent of my pivot.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geez....

I said BALONEY!

And I mean Baloney!

The clubface can—and ALMOST ALWAYS DOES—turn off the plane in the downswing because of "twistaway."

What a goofy, incomplete, over-simplified concept.

The movement of the club, hands and arms, from the top, is so much more than what is explained in TGM, and like Mathew has pointed out, isn't even correct in what it is saying.

So I say, Baloney!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Of course it is a blended motion during the swing, but the left wrist release does come slightly ahead of the roll..

It can ABSOLUTELY DO the very opposite.

If you can explain it any differently, please go ahead…

There are DOZENS of pics from the down the line view, of long hitters with the clubface either toe-UP or slightly more closed than that when their club is at parallel before impact.

But their left wrist has lost almost none of it's cock.

 

[niblick1]

When the left hand is turned to the plane and the wrist is bent to the exact degree that the left arm is angled from above into the plane, the roll of the left hand towards a vertical condition dynamically changes the bend into wrist cock. Likewise, what was wristcock will automatically change into its equivalent in arched.

The wrist conditions are created in responce to the clubhead orbit, not vice versa.

As far as what Hogan did - he did exactly the procedure I have described.

Ok, I've spent an hour trying to decide if this is true, sometimes true, or not true, and I am still not sure. Very interesting, though.

 

[puttmad]

I deal with EFFICIENCY during the golf swing, that's all I'm interested in..you may be able to force the club into (any) various positions, but that won't make you efficient...that just means you have to create (yet) another cure for a problem you have created...

 

[golfbulldog]

The concept of sequence release is based on the golfers flail of 2-K moving longitudinally on a flat plane. This model would indeed create a sequenced release whereby the uncocking motion of this construct would take place prior to the point that the primary lever assembly is inline at which time the roll action could take place without causing the club to be offplane. The model does produce a sequenced release however it is inaccurate to the way that the human model operates.

The golfers flail as depicted 2-K allows the motion of the club relative to the left arm on two planes (cock/uncock and turn/roll). Hence, the flat left wrist concept which maintains this constant relationship with the left wristcock always staying on a plane with the left arm. Unfortunately, for Homer Kelley the left arm is above plane during the golf stroke which means that the uncocking motion with the flat left wrist concept would never be aligned to the inclined plane.

Now this can be reconciled with an offset where in the turned state, the bend of the left wrist occurs to the degree that the left arm goes into the plane in order to align the wristcock plane to the inclined plane.

The inline condition with the left arm above the plane is taken by using a vertical plane to the inclined plane through the left arm and impact is reached prior to this event in all good golf strokes. Obviously thats yet another huge contradiction in the book because if the roll was somehow automatic as Homer Kelley thought after the wristcock had 'run out' per the model, you would be past the point desired for impact. Even if this was possible the roll into impact would occur with such a burst in speed that the clubface control would be erratic.

So in summary, the release can be sequenced but certainly not the way Homer Kelley described it.

I wrote this very fast - so any typos, gramatical mistakes...etc or if its just too complex (and I did try to only cover the simple stuff that people might get)... I just don't care ...

Matthew,

This is brilliant stuff.

Do you feel like this is the reason that Hogan and Garcia both ADDED left wrist bend—from their top-of-the-backswing left wrist condition—and then took the bend out pre-impact?

My guess is that Hogan added the cup in the left wrist at the top so the shaft and left arm were out of plane with each other so he was in a low-leverage position. He could go hard from the top without over springing the shaft. The thought being it is better to spring the shaft (and go from cupped to bowed) after the free ride. Not at the top, and not during impact, but more in the middle of the downswing like page 98-99, his downswing sequence of five lessons.

The meat of this thread got muddled up in some of the other posts but I gathered the best cuts here.

Brian refers directly to Hogan's cupping/bending of the left wrist in transition (which Hogan described as one of his secrets).

I interpret the cupping move via its effect on the sweetspot/clubface.

The clubface during the backswing is turned to the inclined plane (to some degree)....in the downswing it is rolled back to square hopefully around impact.

Is there benefit in keeping the clubface turned to the plane (in its top of backswing orientation to the inclined plane) for the early part of the downswing??

Does it prevent / make it easier to resist the "throw out" action of CF??

Savydan suggests that this position prevents the club from "springing" - a term I first heard from Mike Maves video...where he appeared to be describing the rolling of the shaft/ clubface around the sweetspot - no?

Brian got excited about it...anyone else have any comments?

For those who use lag sensation in their hands to monitor their stroke...how do these ideas translate to PP3 sensation??

 

[rogerdodger]

This is a terrific thread that really identifies the turning of the clubface towards the ball in the downswing. This can be done with lag, it is not an early release. After hitting shanks, duck hooks and pushes I finally decided to allow the face to turn to the ball immediately in the downswing. My contact improved immeasurably. I can still use the karate chop idea, only I feel the face turn towards the ball. My ball striking is much better, less underplane in the downswing. The yellow book indicates that the roll must be intended no later than the top of the swing. Obviously Homer Kelly knew that what he described as swinging could lead to a lagging hosel, the stronger the pivot. If you think about a sequenced release with an intention to turn the face off the plane towards the ball, you end up with twistaway and insurance against hosel lag. If I do not turn the club off the face, I have to slow my pivot down to avoid shanking, not a good way to play. If my clubface is coming in square and closing, I can hit with my hips. I disagree with some that say this site does not follow TGM. I think this concept is in there, like most of the book, you have to look for it.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I disagree with some that say this site does not follow TGM. I think this concept is in there, like most of the book, you have to look for it.

Look, there are people who are selling TWO patterns who say what is done on this site is not "pure" TGM or whatever that means...it is absolutely silly. Brian and his staff use concepts that allow a golfer to find a pattern that works for them (the gist of TGM, is it not?). That can include all kinds of information, found in the yellow book or not. Brian will not teach something faulty though, yellow book included...that may rub some the wrong way.

Brian should really do like other top instructors and put his TGM credentials on the backburner, much like Chuck Cook and let all their petty warring factions fight over whose head is the most steady.

 

[rogerdodger]

My point is that the book is a catalog, not a how to. Brian's twistaway concept is in the book, maybe not explicitly, but there if you look. The book is intended as the instructor's toolbox, Kelly never indicated that common sense or science should not be followed. This forum provides both, sequenced release is easily misapplied as written. Brian's response makes much better sense and is more efficient, if the goal is a center strike with the clubface.

 

[curtisj76]

Brian should really do like other top instructors and put his TGM credentials on the backburner,

I totally agree and I honestly think he will do this eventually. Brian is passionate about getting the game RIGHT and if the "book guys" can't/won't see the light, why be associated with them??? jmHo

 

[Brian Manzella]

Credentials.

I think I have said this many times before.....but.....

I am a Class A Member of The PGA of America.

I disagree with about 80% of what "National Office" does. I still pay my dues, go to all the major seminars, speak at section seminars around the country, and try to smarten up as many members as I can. In other words, I try to be part of the solution, not the problem. A dissenting voice often times, but with the letters behind my name, and the card in my wallet.

I hold a Golf Stroke Engineering Doctorate from The Golfing Machine, LLC.

I disagree with some of the things that "National Office" does. I still pay my dues, go to all the major seminars, speak at them when asked, and try to smarten up as many Authorized Instructors as I can. A dissenting voice some times, but with the letters behind my name, and the certificate in a frame.

I am a member of AMF's instructor division.

I disagree with some of the things that "National Office" does. I still pay my dues, go to all the major seminars, will speak at them when asked, and I try to smarten up as many members as I can. In other words, Sometimes a dissenting voice, but proud to be a member.

.......

One day, I will start my own "Association."

Be that as it may, I intend to keep using, PGA next to my name, and G.S.E.D. as well.

I am NOT anti-"Golfing Machine."

I am anti-stupidity, anti-ignorance, anti-head in the sand, and pro-progress.

Hope this answers your question.