Snapping the Kinetic Chain vs Straight Plane Line

[tongzilla]

For some golfers, the positions they get into to maximise their snapping of the kinetic chain can have an adverse effect for tracing the straight plane line. In other words, there may be a comprimise between the two. Discuss!

 

[speedracer68]

I personally feel that a striaght plane line is esstential to maximizing snapping the kinetic chain..Of course im no pro...but if everything arms and club is tracing the same plane line..then snapping the kinetic chain should be "a snap"...how can you snap the chain without a striaght plane line

 

[daniell]

Speedracer is correct. I was actually typing out a long message but it got lost. But since you have started this thread, let me post it here. Snapping the kinetic chain is nothing more than having an efficient technique so that the clubhead's momentum (momentum = mass x velocity) is maintained through the ball. Let me explain through two examples that I'm been playing with:

(1) Hold a club in front of you and cock your left wrist with the back of your left hand facing skywards. Now rotate your body anti-clockwise. I'm a right handed so I rotate myself anti-clockwise. Keep turning and turning and turning. What you will notice is that if you do not add any additional force, the angle in the left wrist between your hand and the clubshaft never gets released!

(2) Now do the same example (1). As you rotate, stop suddenly. You will notice that the club/clubhead wants to continue to move forward and increasingly (the faster you turn and the sharper you stop), it's more difficult to keep the angle between the clubshaft and left arm. There is nothing mysterious about this. This is the effect of the clubhead's inertia. You will also notice that for you to maintain the clubhead's momentum along this horizontal plane when you stop your body from turning, you must do two things. One, rotate your left arm. Two, release the angle in your left wrist.

So snapping the kinetic chain in layman's term simply means maintaining the clubhead's momentum through the ball. Doing it is the technique.

And thada .. there you have it. The golf swing is finding a technique to generate momentum and then to ensure that this momentum is maintained through the ball! Common sense right?

If you do not rotate your left forearm, momentum is lost. If you do not allow your left wrist to uncock, momentum is again lost.

The more difficult part, i feel, is whether we can now insert some force, where and when, to increase the clubhead's momentum through the ball. And this force, must it be along the plane line then??

Try it!

cheers,

daniel

PS: So what's the difference between hitting and swinging?? ;-)

 

[golfbulldog]

For some golfers, the positions they get into to maximise their snapping of the kinetic chain can have an adverse effect for tracing the straight plane line. In other words, there may be a comprimise between the two. Discuss!

Is it just that the kinetic chain focuses on physics/dynamics and straight plane line focuses on alignments/precision.

To play good golf you need both. taking individual golfers as they are, i guess a teacher would have to focus on the one that they have less of... Fred Funk could be more dynamic... Rory Sabattini might be more precise....

It is all compromise...

And it changes over time...

 

[speedracer68]

if you are to take physics as an example..let me try to explain it the way i understand it..a trebuchet

I'm sure we can agree that a trebuchet snaps a kinetic chain and it also traces a straight plain line...If a trebuchet would not trace a straight plane line it would not be as accurate or as powerful in snapping it's kinetic chain..=)

 

[JeffM]

If you look at this animation of a Trebuchet device, you can see that the release phenomenon occurs without the arm having to slow down. The arm slows down AFTER release. The idea that a golfer's hand needs to slow down prior to impact, in order for the release phenomenon to occur, get's no support from the PingMan machine's/trebuchet's release behaviour.

http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/treb_animated.html

Jeff.

 

[hcw]

Some Brian Manzella views of Hitting and Swinging

PS: So what's the difference between hitting and swinging?? ;-)

See:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8644

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8863

 

[jeffy]

If you look at this animation of a Trebuchet device, you can see that the release phenomenon occurs without the arm having to slow down. The arm slows down AFTER release. The idea that a golfer's hand needs to slow down prior to impact, in order for the release phenomenon to occur, get's no support from the PingMan machine's/trebuchet's release behaviour.

http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/treb_animated.html

Jeff.

Isn't it entirely possible that BOTH approaches can effectively work in a golf swing, i.e., one where the left arm slows down prior to impact, and one where it doesn't? The great British pro and instructor Henry Cotton came to that conclusion. If I remember correctly, he took a lot of photographs of players to study, and noticed that, at impact, for some the left arm "braked" while the right hand whipped over (the right hand would be blurry but the left hand wouldn't). For others, both hands would be equally blurry, indicating that they were traveling at more or less the same speed.

He identified two releases where the left arm "braked" and the right hand passed it: the "rotational" release (where the wrists rotated through impact) and the "hinge-slap" (where the left wrist bent backwards after impact). The "push" release is what he called the release where both hands whipped through impact together. Where is it proven that PingMan's is the only effective way to release?

 

[tbone69]

Slow down

Jeff,
Whether the shoulders/arms slow down is immaterial to most golfers. I don't think that this slowing is something that is done consciously. If it happens in the process of making an efficient movement and allows the club to do what it is supposed to do, then so be it. If not, same thing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jeff,
Whether the shoulders/arms slow down is immaterial to most golfers. I don't think that this slowing is something that is done consciously. If it happens in the process of making an efficient movement and allows the club to do what it is supposed to do, then so be it. If not, same thing.

I can do it consciously, it's one way how i fade or draw it.

I have discussed in my previous lessons a lot that, for flippers, you cannot teach them how to "slow down." They slow down TOO MUCH and then the hands flip over excessively. So i have to teach them to keep the pedal to the floor and use the gas (keep accelerating) so that the hands don't catch up.

Once they learn how to do that, they can learn to let the body slow down SOME to allow what everyone has been talking about, the kinetic chain.

But remember, if you put the brakes on too hard, you're gonna snap hook it

 

[Bigwill]

If you look at this animation of a Trebuchet device, you can see that the release phenomenon occurs without the arm having to slow down. The arm slows down AFTER release. The idea that a golfer's hand needs to slow down prior to impact, in order for the release phenomenon to occur, get's no support from the PingMan machine's/trebuchet's release behaviour.

http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/treb_animated.html

Jeff.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the diagram. There are videos on youtube of actual trebuchet devices that release well after the release point in this diagram, which would make more sense in that the release point in the diagram wouldn't allow for full acceleration, nor would it take advantage of full energy transfer from the arm to the sling. If you want info on Kinetic Chain, you'd probably want to look for it in relation to baseball pitching or swinging, or in field events like javelin. There's probably much more research on it in those fields than in golf.

 

[JeffM]

To ALL

There is no doubt in my mind that some golfers slow their left arm/hands/right shoulder prior to impact. However, that swing pattern is much more likely to result in flipping (clubhead outracing hands in the late downswing). I think that most PGA tour players are like Hogan/Woods - they continue to accelerate throughout the entire dowswing. The important point is that I think that i) it is myth that the right shoulder, and/or the hands, have to slow down PRIOR to impact; AND ii) it is a myth that the clubhead release phenomenon is dependent on this slowing-down phenomenon.

Jeff.

 

[jeffy]

To ALL

There is no doubt in my mind that some golfers slow their left arm/hands/right shoulder prior to impact. However, that swing pattern is much more likely to result in flipping (clubhead outracing hands in the late downswing). I think that most PGA tour players are like Hogan/Woods - they continue to accelerate throughout the entire dowswing. The important point is that I think that i) it is myth that the right shoulder, and/or the hands, have to slow down PRIOR to impact; AND ii) it is a myth that the clubhead release phenomenon is dependent on this slowing-down phenomenon.

Jeff.

From what I've seen, more tour pros release with their arms like Davis (rotational release) then with their body like Hogan (push release). Woods uses a rotational release with the driver, more of a push release with the irons and "stinger", and, as predicted, is wilder with the driver, but not from "flipping": the rotational release is just harder to time at very high swingspeeds. The myth is that there is only one effective way that applies to all good swings. If you want to play well with a rotational release, you'll need to "brake" around impact; with a push release, you don't. Since the rotational release predominates, the myth is created that is how it is always done. But it is done both ways.

 

[Bigwill]

To ALL

There is no doubt in my mind that some golfers slow their left arm/hands/right shoulder prior to impact. However, that swing pattern is much more likely to result in flipping (clubhead outracing hands in the late downswing). I think that most PGA tour players are like Hogan/Woods - they continue to accelerate throughout the entire dowswing. The important point is that I think that i) it is myth that the right shoulder, and/or the hands, have to slow down PRIOR to impact; AND ii) it is a myth that the clubhead release phenomenon is dependent on this slowing-down phenomenon.

Jeff.

The concept of kinetic chain isn't a pattern, and I think that people are misunderstanding or misapplying the concept. And it's more than just someone "slowing their hands down" prior to impact. The kinetic chain is what happens in a dynamic athletic motion such as swinging or throwing, regardless of the feel the individual has. It is a phenomena that Ben Hogan described in his book. All it is is the passing of momentum/energy/what-have-you from link to the next. Anyone with a decent swing, who swings from the ground up, is demonstrating the concept of the kinetic chain. I don't care how you release the club (including knockdowns, cuts, whatever), you won't see a swing on tour that dosen't demonstrate the kinetic chain concept. Everybody dosen't demonstrate the same degree of efficiency, but it's there. That the different parts slow down in order to impart is simply the "how" of it. And the slowing dosen't have to be drastic in order for whatever proximal link to pass its momentum to the next distal link. Don't get caught up in the "hands slowing down" part of it. It'll give you the wrong idea.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The concept of kinetic chain isn't a pattern, and I think that people are misunderstanding or misapplying the concept. And it's more than just someone "slowing their hands down" prior to impact. The kinetic chain is what happens in a dynamic athletic motion such as swinging or throwing, regardless of the feel the individual has. It is a phenomena that Ben Hogan described in his book. All it is is the passing of momentum/energy/what-have-you from link to the next. Anyone with a decent swing, who swings from the ground up, is demonstrating the concept of the kinetic chain. I don't care how you release the club (including knockdowns, cuts, whatever), you won't see a swing on tour that dosen't demonstrate the kinetic chain concept. Everybody dosen't demonstrate the same degree of efficiency, but it's there. That the different parts slow down in order to impart is simply the "how" of it. And the slowing dosen't have to be drastic in order for whatever proximal link to pass its momentum to the next distal link. Don't get caught up in the "hands slowing down" part of it. It'll give you the wrong idea.

Very true, but the amount that you allow the chain to SNAP will have an effect on the release of the clubhead. Thats why those who tend to have slow more down around impact play more of a draw (influences a rapid clubface closure) and those who keep going tend to play more of a fade or "straight shot" because the clubface isn't closing as rapidly.

I used to do this. I had forgotten about it to be honest because i really like to use an active pivot. However i was at the range at lunch today with a friend and were both using the speed of a our pivots to influence the clubface control.

 

[Bigwill]

Very true, but the amount that you allow the chain to SNAP will have an effect on the release of the clubhead. Thats why those who tend to have slow more down around impact play more of a draw (influences a rapid clubface closure) and those who keep going tend to play more of a fade or "straight shot" because the clubface isn't closing as rapidly.

I used to do this. I had forgotten about it to be honest because i really like to use an active pivot. However i was at the range at lunch today with a friend and were both using the speed of a our pivots to influence the clubface control.

I agree. Like I said, kinetic chain (or kinetic linking) isn't a pattern, and it isn't a release. It's about the transfer of momentum from link to link.

Do you recommend controlling ballflight this way (pivot speed), or would you consider it something more advanced?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I agree. Like I said, kinetic chain (or kinetic linking) isn't a pattern, and it isn't a release. It's about the transfer of momentum from link to link.

Do you recommend controlling ballflight this way (pivot speed), or would you consider it something more advanced?

I would say it is an advanced way to control ballflight, just like varying axis tilt. I think it is something better plays can do.

However i wouldn't reccomend it for anyone who is a struggling flipper. They need to learn how to speed up the chain and learn to hit the "straight fade" as i call it so they learn how to pivot correctly and not flip.

THEN

Once they figure that out, you can teach them to slow the pivot down a bit to increase face closure.

 

[speedracer68]

so am i to assume that the discussion on straight plane line vs kinetic chain is done and agreed upon..

the discussion has been replaced by

) it is myth that the right shoulder, and/or the hands, have to slow down PRIOR to impact

My view on this is that a pivot powered swing can only exert force on the arms while the left arm is across the chest..once the left arm continues on it's downward path and separates from it's intitial position across the chest the arms start to slow ever so slightly to allow the clubhead to overtake and sling through the ball..

even in the trebuchet once the counter weight hits the bottom of its arc the arm starts decelerating to let the sling through..If the arm kept acellerating then the sling would never fire..I two cars were towing each other and the lead car always accelerated the tow car would always be behind.

ii) it is a myth that the clubhead release phenomenon is dependent on this slowing-down phenomenon.

how can that be a myth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVTld5GvbM

You can definitely see that the clubhead starts catching up with the hands when the connection of the pivot and the left arm is separated..Just like a bullet from a gun once the bullet leaves the barrel there is no more forward forces acting on the bullet..so once the bullet leaves the gun barrel it starts decellerating...once the pivots connection with the arm is finished there is a slight decelleration of the arms..Unless your a flipper or over accellerator..thats a different topic altogether

 

[shootin4par]

you snap the kinetic chain in some golf swings because the power is not from a rotary motion, it is from shifting left and the arms stay more in front of the chest then a rotary swing. once you shift so far left, there is no where else to shift, the shifting part of the pivot stops, the appliance of power no becoms in the right arm unfolding, left wrist uncocking which then snaps the chain into the cluhead. The rotating of the pivot in this type of swing will not add anything after the shift because at that time things are going to fast. That tiger clip above, more of a rotary swing so some of what I said does not apply, his swing now a little less rotary, more shifting

just my view, others may see it different.
have fun
seeker

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sorry folks...

But some of you are sooooooooo far out in left field you need a map to get back.

Snapping the kinetic chain is NOT DEBATABLE, EVERY good player EVER tested DOES IT and the longer, or more efficent power producing swings DO IT MORE.

Jeff Mann...and others,

I spent TWO WHOLE DAYS on a 3d machine, I can make ANY swing you want—and DID, & I snapped the chain on ALL of them. Some more than others, but, unless you want to be the powder puff hitter of all time...you have NO CHOICE!