Snapping the Kinetic Chain vs Straight Plane Line

[JeffM]

Speedracer - you stated-: "My view on this is that a pivot powered swing can only exert force on the arms while the left arm is across the chest..once the left arm continues on it's downward path and separates from it's intitial position across the chest the arms start to slow ever so slightly to allow the clubhead to overtake and sling through the ball."

I think that you are totally wrong. You seem to associate the pivot powered swing with a left arm torquing movement across the chest wall and you seem to believe that if the left arm leaves its position across the chest wall, that it will slow down and allow the clubhead to overtake the hands.

I think that two forces are present in the pivot powered swing and they have their ultimate effect on the grip end of the club via the conjoined hand unit. In the early downswing, a left-sided force may dominate as the left shoulder is pulled away from the chin by the rotation of the torso (which occurs as a result of the downswing pivot action initiated by the lower body) - and that force exerts a pulling action on the left arm that causes the conjoined hand unit to pull the grip end of the club down to the ball. However, while that is happening, the right side of the body obviously keeps up with the left side.

Note in the following photo of Ben Hogan that the distance of the conjoined hand unit from the right shoulder remains unchanged in the early/mid downswing - which means that the right shoulder/right arm/right elbow must be moving exactly as fast as the left shoulder in the early/mid downswing.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganPowerPackage.jpg

If you want to see this phenomenon in "real life" action - view this Ben Hogan video lesson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

In the second half of the downswing, the pulling action of the left arm on the grip end of the club (via the conjoined hand unit) obviously lessens, but the conjoined hand unit is still driven very actively down to the impact zone via the second downswing pivot force - the right shoulder (really the right mid-upper torso). During the second half of the downswing, the right shoulder is the major powering factor as it actively drives down the RSP line towards the ball. While this is happening the right elbow is straightening, and the right forearm lines up with the releasing clubshaft, and the power of the right shoulder flows through the extending right arm/forearm to the conjoined hand unit, and ensures that the conjoined hand unit steadily accelerates all the way to impact. There is no slowing of the conjoined hand unit in a good golfer - like Tiger Woods. The clubhead nearly catches up to the conjoined hand unit by impact - even though the conjoined hand unit does not slow down during the downswing phase of the swing. The clubhead catches up due to the release phenomenon, and the release phenomenon is explained by three forces acting together - angular momentum of the club; gravity acting on the clubhead after the clubshaft passes the vertical position; +/- slight active uncocking of the left wrist/active unhinging of the right wrist if active wrist forces are operant.

NMGolfer has provided a rational explanation for the release phenomenon on his website - http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/release.htm

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whoa Nellie....

Two advertisments for OTHER people's website on one post is TWO too many.

Guys...

Stop it.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - I would like to avoid what you call "advertising" by embedding the photos, and any linked pages, directly in my posted message - so that all links (?advertisements) are hidden. Is that possible? I would like to post messages that have explanatory photos/diagrams/graphs (and totally hidden links) and I would like to know how to accomplish that goal.

Jeff.

 

[hcw]

embedding

Brian - I would like to avoid what you call "advertising" by embedding the photos, and any linked pages, directly in my posted message - so that all links (?advertisements) are hidden. Is that possible? I would like to post messages that have explanatory photos/diagrams/graphs (and totally hidden links) and I would like to know how to accomplish that goal.

Jeff.

you can use the "Insert Image" and "Insert Link" buttons on the toolbar of the posting screen to embed the image and make text hyperlinked...for example:

this explanation

 

[birdie_man]

But remember, if you put the brakes on too hard, you're gonna snap hook it

Too hard or too early?

 

[JeffM]

hcw

Thanks for the great advice. I would love to be able to do that.

I must be real stupid. I cannot locate a tool bar on my posting screen. I can only see a "post icons" bar. Where is the tool bar?

Jeff.

p.s. By the way, I use a Mozilla browser.

 

[JeffM]

Wow! I have just found out how to make the tool bar appear. There is an ability to set options, and under "miscelleanous options", I found a "message interface" option and changed the setting to "standard editor". That made the tool bar appear.

Now I can adhere to Brian's preferred policy of not "advertising" by posting links/images directly into my posted message. I wonder whether other forum members realise that this advanced option is available.

Jeff.

 

[speedracer68]

Well you've shown a perfect example of what im trying to say...Up until this point it looks like the club is arms elbows shoulder hands are all traveling as one single unit powered by the lower body or pivot..at least we both agree on that..

After the initial pivot i just believe the arms are passive and just follow momentum through the shot...I personally believe that there is no extra pushing and pulling with either arm..and especially a concious effort to move the club with active wrist forces..

However i'm not saying that anybody can't play excellent golf playing with active arms and wrists..There are multiple ways to skin the cat and he who undestands his method of swinging better usually plays better..We can at least agree that there is no definitive way to swing a club..and you cannot disprove my beliefs as invalid and vice versa..Thanks for the discussion Jeff..=)

Whatever happens I still believe in Mazella video #3..hehehe

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7517

Shake the sugar baby..=)

 

[hcw]

Whoops!

Wow! I have just found out how to make the tool bar appear. There is an ability to set options, and under "miscelleanous options", I found a "message interface" option and changed the setting to "standard editor". That made the tool bar appear.

Now I can adhere to Brian's preferred policy of not "advertising" by posting links/images directly into my posted message. I wonder whether other forum members realise that this advanced option is available.

Jeff.

...sorry, i forgot about having to set the options and crashed right after posting...but obviously you found it on your own...have fun!

-hcw

 

[JeffM]

speedracer68

You wrote-: "After the initial pivot i just believe the arms are passive and just follow momentum through the shot...I personally believe that there is no extra pushing and pulling with either arm..and especially a concious effort to move the club with active wrist forces.."

I agree with you - I believe that there should no be no extra arm pushing/pulling after the initial pivot. However, I suspect that we don't agree where the pivot ends. You seemingly believe that the pivot ends when the hip initiation move is complete (second image in that Hogan photo). By contrast, I believe that the pivot continues beyiond that point and I believe that the unwinding/uncoiling of the mid-upper torso is part of the downswing pivot action, and that the right shoulder (really right mid-upper torso) becomes the primary driving force in the latter phase of the downswing pivot action, and that it works to continue to drive the hands down towards the impact zone. As Bobby Clampett stated in his book "The Impact Zone" -: "As you approach the impact zone, you simply "ride" your pivot motion through to the end of the swing, without making any conscious adjustment for hitting the ball. It's as if you were to visualize the ball as a soap bubble, and your fully loaded and lagged club swings right through it --- One of the reasons all golfer struggle with sutaining the lag is that they haven't trained their workhorse, the pivot, to deliver their lag forward enough through the impact zone."

Jeff.

 

[jeffy]

speedracer68

You wrote-: "After the initial pivot i just believe the arms are passive and just follow momentum through the shot...I personally believe that there is no extra pushing and pulling with either arm..and especially a concious effort to move the club with active wrist forces.."

I agree with you - I believe that there should no be no extra arm pushing/pulling after the initial pivot.

Well, why not? Why isn't using the arms actively through impact a viable option? Why do they have to be "passive"? Hogan seemed to think he used his arms actively. In "Five Lessons" on page 96, he says that during the downswing "...I only think of two things: starting the hips back and then hitting as hard as I can with the upper part of the body, my arms and my hands, in that order." On page 100, he uses the analogy of throwing a small medicine ball to illustrate how his arms work: "As he shifts his weight from his right foot to his left to get all his power into his throw, the player flings the ball at the target just as hard as he can, whipping the ball with both arms and both hands, since he can throw it harder and more accurately that way." In the accompanying illustration on page 98: "...the left arm and hand lead the right arm and hand. Be sure you hit through with the left as hard as with the right." He repeats this in the text, on page 99, in all caps: "YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT." I think I get it, Ben...

 

[Leek]

Interesting post. I work on both all the time. Yesterday in a lesson, I showed how I drill tracing the straight plane line. One can do that AND work on snapping the kinetic chain at the same time. It works!

 

[shootin4par]

depends on your type of pivot, the lines below are not being said for a rotary pivot, but a shifting pivot.
after the intitial pivot, once half way down, it is had to add any amrs because things are going so fast. if there where three guys pusihing a child on the swing would you have one at the top, one half way down, and one at impact or would you have all three at the top and have them push togethor? use the right arm/hand, and left wrist uncocking, at the top in unison with the pivot and you have three pushing at once, from half way down the swing is on its own and it is too late to control anyways.

just my take on it
seeker

 

[jeffy]

depends on your type of pivot, the lines below are not being said for a rotary pivot, but a shifting pivot.
after the intitial pivot, once half way down, it is had to add any amrs because things are going so fast. if there where three guys pusihing a child on the swing would you have one at the top, one half way down, and one at impact or would you have all three at the top and have them push togethor? use the right arm/hand, and left wrist uncocking, at the top in unison with the pivot and you have three pushing at once, from half way down the swing is on its own and it is too late to control anyways.

just my take on it
seeker

Right; the "orders" have to be given before the downswing of the arms starts or it will be too late. Ideally, the swing will be on auto-pilot through the "impact segment", as Hogan calls it.

 

[speedracer68]

Which one is it Jeffy =)

"YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT.

or

Ideally, the swing will be on auto-pilot through the "impact segment", as Hogan calls it.

they are two totally different ways to swing..

 

[jeffy]

Which one is it Jeffy =)

"YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT.

or

Ideally, the swing will be on auto-pilot through the "impact segment", as Hogan calls it.

they are two totally different ways to swing..

If you have "Five Lessons", look it up. There is nothing inconsistent or incompatible with hitting hard with the arms and the arms passing through the impact segment without conscious manipulation. From page 97:

"Once a player reaches that phase of the downswing where the hands are at about the level of the hips-the start of the impact segment of the swing, we might term it-if he has performed the swing correctly up to that point, he is so set up that he instinctively hits through the ball and follows through correctly. You can't keep from doing it right."

 

[speedracer68]

If you have "Five Lessons", look it up. There is nothing inconsistent or incompatible with hitting hard with the arms and the arms passing through the impact segment without conscious manipulation.

Isn't try to hit hard with the arms and hands a conscious manipulation...Dont you have to tell yourself i'm going to hit this ball hard with my arms and hands"... how can that even be considered as "auto-pilot"...Instead of just swinging smoothly and on tempo..I've read five fundamentals although that was a long time ago.

 

[jeffy]

Isn't try to hit hard with the arms and hands a conscious manipulation...Dont you have to tell yourself i'm going to hit this ball hard with my arms and hands"... how can that even be considered as "auto-pilot"...Instead of just swinging smoothly and on tempo..I've read five fundamentals although that was a long time ago.

If you want to nitpick my word choice, go wild. The point is that the arms don't have to be "passive" in a world class golf swing. I've quoted the pertinent parts of "Five Lessons". If you want to argue with Hogan, get out your Ouija board.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Too hard or too early?

Both actually.

 

[birdie_man]

Now I can adhere to Brian's preferred policy of not "advertising" by posting links/images directly into my posted message.

Not sure what is easier........butttttttt...........I think all you have to do is right-click on the image then select "Copy Image Location" then post it with

tags.