faux_maestro
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Are you talking about tour pros or college golfers or juniors? Care to give examples?
So what IS going on with the "modern" golf swing?
- Thread starter coachwalls
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Are you talking about tour pros or college golfers or juniors? Care to give examples?
natep
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Epic post!
I agree 100%
The "modern swing" is pretty much all upper body and produces far less power than is possible, here's an article with Jack commenting the same thing about the "modern swing" in Golf Magazine.
http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2011/05/jack-nicklaus-tiger-woods-injury-comparison.html
Lindsey Newman
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One thing I see is less downloading in the transition in the modern players. Whether or not the old school players did it with pivot or with armswing really does not matter. I think that's why the rhythm seems less pronounced or obvious in today's "modern" player. There ain't no doubt that the "buggy whip" down loading has some legit effortless power, but rhythm is a necessity.
When my children start playing I will not be giving them the "ultra light kiddy set". I want that club being left behind in the transition and I want my kids to learn to swing/feel the weight of the club
I think the biggest disconnect, for full strength adults learning to play the game, is being strong enough to over power the swinging weight of the golf club. They can hit it far enough without using proper technique. Children on the other hand must learn to use the weight of the club to load and unload. Children must use proper sequence and dynamics to even move the club up and down.
When my children start playing I will not be giving them the "ultra light kiddy set". I want that club being left behind in the transition and I want my kids to learn to swing/feel the weight of the club
I think the biggest disconnect, for full strength adults learning to play the game, is being strong enough to over power the swinging weight of the golf club. They can hit it far enough without using proper technique. Children on the other hand must learn to use the weight of the club to load and unload. Children must use proper sequence and dynamics to even move the club up and down.
self-mastery
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I'm referring to Touring Professionals.
Examples: I hate everyone who doesn't swing like Bubba! That includes Rory and his 'perfect' fundamentals
I believe natep is a swing your lower spine like a bell, connect your left arm to your pec, right side compression, right arm throw, center pivot slinger?
Theres always a modern swing. Jacks swing was modern to hogan,Nelson, Snead, whose swings were modern to Hagen and Jones whose swings were modern to Vardon and Ray and on and on...new equipment has a lot to do with it. Kids today swing at it harder than ever cause they can. I just can't imagine 120 mph with hickory. Torque is becoming a thing of the past, way past
coachwalls
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I guess that's kind of my point. Most of the swings I see now from younger players is a "just hit the heck out of it" swing. I'm not going to pretend that I've discovered some new trend or that this hit it as hard as you can swing is the swing of the future. I just want to know how the young guys on tour learned how to do this and why? When did the pop culture cookie cutter swing go out the window?
Young athletes
I don't know when but when big strong athletes began coming to golf not just football ,baseball etc, and torque was all but taken out of shafts, maybe it was just a matter of time. Or maybe when the USGA let the distance cat out of the bag and the kids had to play 7000+ yd courses. But maybe it's not that new either. Nicklaus took a helluva cut at the driver in his day just like Grout taught him to?
I don't know when but when big strong athletes began coming to golf not just football ,baseball etc, and torque was all but taken out of shafts, maybe it was just a matter of time. Or maybe when the USGA let the distance cat out of the bag and the kids had to play 7000+ yd courses. But maybe it's not that new either. Nicklaus took a helluva cut at the driver in his day just like Grout taught him to?
I wonder if Project 1.68 might shed some light on this.....
self-mastery
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I haven't seen these big strong athletes on ANY tour just the same average sized guys who now do strength training and pilates....
For all the wack the hell out of it = modern swing --- These guys still aren't pumping out big power. I just see anchored right knee and jam your hips open, then drive your upper body through swings.
johnnymarlboro
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I don't understand who you keep refering to as "these guys." I suppose "big strong athletes" depends on your definition, or what you're comparing it to. To NFL linebackers, yes most of them aren't that big. Compared to NBA players, yes most of them aren't that tall. Here's a few of the top driving leaders in golf.
J.B. Holmes 316.9 avg yards 5'11" 190 lbs
Bubba Watson 311.6 avg yards 6'3" 180 lbs
Robert Garrigus 308.9 avg yards 5'11" 190 lbs
Dustin Johnson 307.8 avg yards 6'4" 190 lbs
Steven Bowditch 306.2 avg yards 6'0" 200 lbs
Gary Woodland 305.4 avg yards 6'1" 200 lbs
Or how about a guy that is built like a linebacker
Jhonatton Vegas 299.1 avg yards 6'2" 230 lbs
I don't understand how big you're expecting these guys to be. I wouldn't consider any of them to be small. They're certainly all larger then your average male. No one ever said they'd be pounding it out there 350 on every single drive. They are tour players. For all that power there's got to be some control in there. And how is this old school swing any different then your description of the modern swing? Seems to me like you're kind of romanticising the swings of yesterday.
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birly-shirly
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For all the modern day advantages of better nutrition, and physical conditioning, and longer, lighter drivers - aren't the longest hitters today still generating much the same clubhead speed as the longest hitters of the past?
Current radar stats show a bunch of guys at the top hitting 120 - 125mph. I don't think that's any more powerful than Watson, Nicklaus or Norman were back in the day, with shorter, heavier persimmon. From memory, I think Bobby Jones' swingspeed was estimated at 113mph whilst trying to control a hickory shaft. Maybe there are more guys bunched at the top end today. Maybe the more forgiving equipment allows more guys to take a lash at it. But I'm not convinced that the dynamics of the golf swing have fundamentally changed.
As for the young guys coming through, isn't it more common for the best players to learn to throttle back some and control their clubhead speed as they get more experienced rather than gain clubhead speed? I know some guys will gain distance through optimising their launch conditions, but gains in raw speed seem rare - whereas I believe guys like Nicklaus, Tiger and Strange all hit it further in college than they did in their professional prime.
Current radar stats show a bunch of guys at the top hitting 120 - 125mph. I don't think that's any more powerful than Watson, Nicklaus or Norman were back in the day, with shorter, heavier persimmon. From memory, I think Bobby Jones' swingspeed was estimated at 113mph whilst trying to control a hickory shaft. Maybe there are more guys bunched at the top end today. Maybe the more forgiving equipment allows more guys to take a lash at it. But I'm not convinced that the dynamics of the golf swing have fundamentally changed.
As for the young guys coming through, isn't it more common for the best players to learn to throttle back some and control their clubhead speed as they get more experienced rather than gain clubhead speed? I know some guys will gain distance through optimising their launch conditions, but gains in raw speed seem rare - whereas I believe guys like Nicklaus, Tiger and Strange all hit it further in college than they did in their professional prime.
Erik_K
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Outstanding post! Just how far are they supposed to hit the damn ball? It wasn't all that long ago that people were complaining about everybody hitting driver + wedge on just about every hole. I agree that the guys you listed aren't huge players with massive physiques, but they aren't tiny either.
You also bring up a very valid point - driving is just one component of the game! These guys must be complete players to compete - hence the attention to short game, wedge play, working the ball, etc. Is it really all that beneficial if they add another 20 yards to their drives when they are hitting 9 i or wedge into the green already?
What device measured Jones' club head speed in 1928? Trackaman stats tell us there are 50+ guys on tour right now OVER 115...I teach 3 kids under 25 years old who are near 120. Torque is so minimal now they can swing harder and they do.
natep
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Harold Edgarton was a MIT professor who pioneered stroboscopic photography, he took pictures of Jones swinging with a strobe light flashing and calculated the speed by measuring the distance between strobes, sometime in the mid-1930's. There is an online collection of his work, and several photos of Jones are in his notebooks along with his measurements and calculations. Pretty cool stuff.
mgranato
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Even when compared to high school athletes, no one on that list is impressive physically. Top golfers just don't register among other professional athletes with regard to size, strength, or "athleticism". It's not necessary in order to become a great golfer. But some of the push back comes from hearing the talking heads constantly tell us that golf is "stealing" top athletes from other sports - c'mon. Golfers are only impressive when compared to other golfers. It makes us sound silly when one of our "experts" says, "he could play linebacker in the NFL." When the reality is, he probably couldn't play linebacker for Eastside High School.
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