Sonic Golf System

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In golf there kind of two opposing tendencies - 1) forever more complexity and 2) the everlasting search for that single ephemeral and all compassing idea, aiming to make golf very simple.

The first approach is to analyze and measure anything and everything. This is especially made possible with modern technology, which as a prime also is ever more miniaturized. The 3D machinery for measuring ball club impact phenomena is a good example. We have for instance the efforts of Dr Nesbit et al. measuring multiple facets of the golf swing in conjunction with sophisticated mathematical models.

And we have the other tendency, the KISS-type of approach. In this approach one tries to hang the whole complex golf swing ideally onto only one concept, such as single plane, connection, swing the club head, gravity, etc.. Both ways of thinking have their followers.

The know-all approach is very fundamental to many of our endeavors. Yet there is a perhaps point of where it gets perhaps counterproductive. Medical research is perhaps a good example. Publication upon publication, many contradictory, and progress is rather slow and cumbersome. When will cancer research finally emerge with something worthwhile the massive amount of research done and huge money spent?

There is a possibility that golf instruction might go the same direction. Science is good but the problem is that there are too many people around who have only one major preoccupation and that is to make money. In the same way that the marketing of golf clubs are loaded with esoteric pseudo scientific claims it might possibly develop the same way with future scientific type golf instruction.

Many who are aspiring to become descent golfers really do not have the time required to develop and maintain a high quality swing. Hence, a single thought or concept might be indeed be an interesting approach for these types of golfers. However, as everything it can be readily overcooked in the hands of charlatans having no competence but rather an urgent need to quickly fill their pockets.

Biofeedback is kind of a paradox. It relies on very complex brain activity doing something useful for us yet we haven’t any idea how our marvelous brain is doing us this favor, helping us obtaining the desired useful result. Yet notwithstanding the complexity of the input, the brain, the output is usually a very simple indicator of some sort using for example, light, audio, or EEG signals.

Dr. Grober, a professor in applied physics, a passionate scratch golfer, has played and fiddled around many years with his ideas before marketing a practical, easy to use, commercial training aid - the ‘Sonic Golf System’ - based on biofeedback. It is actually typically the opposite type of research when compared to Dr. Nesbit‘s efforts - which are complex, academic, not readily accessible or practical for the average golfer/instructor.

I have analyzed the ‘Sonic Golf System’ for the simple reason that I like it, being deftly designed and using an elegant and efficient transducer concept - the differential transducer approach. It is the type of contributions science is able to make when a scientist is also an avid golfer experimenting on himself for many years ideas and concepts. For those interested just step inside and have a look.

mandrin
 
I seen an episode on the golf channel about this, I thought it looked interesting. I believe VJ Singh started using one last summer and we all know how he finished the year.
 
The Harmonic Series and Sonic Golf

Mandrin,

Seems the Sonic Golf System uses the Harmonic Series to "measure" speed. Is there any info on how high the series goes?? Meaning...How high in pitch is the system able to reach by the highest speed swingers? Is there a definitive difference in pitch of say, 110m.p.h. to 130m.p.h.? Can a well trained ear catch this difference? I ask because I have thought about getting one and love the idea of the speed relating to sound. Being a musician it would be fun to play with. Thanks.
 
Mandrin,

Seems the Sonic Golf System uses the Harmonic Series to "measure" speed. Is there any info on how high the series goes?? Meaning...How high in pitch is the system able to reach by the highest speed swingers? Is there a definitive difference in pitch of say, 110m.p.h. to 130m.p.h.? Can a well trained ear catch this difference? I ask because I have thought about getting one and love the idea of the speed relating to sound. Being a musician it would be fun to play with. Thanks.
vjsinger,

I don’t know the algorithm used to translate the acceleration signal into volume and pitch. The base signal is proportional to the club's centripetal acceleration, hence proportional to the shaft’s angular velocity squared. Using a micro processor on board and a Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI) many options are open. It could be linearly related to either acceleration or velocity. It is also quite possible that some non-linear weighting is being used to make the audio interpretation of the swing for the golfer as useful as possible over a maximum possible range. However, being a musician you can get a fair idea listening to Grober's lecture at the Aspen Institute.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Sonic Golf

When I said I didn't see anything new at the PGA Show, I was not entirely correct.

I had heard about the Sonic Golf trainer, but I had not seen it yet.

I demoed it, and was very impressed because it worked flawlessly.

There are several things I could do with it with students.

It currently falls in the "I'll get it when I settle down into a permanent location/studio."

Dr. Grober is a very smart guy, and we had a nice little talk about a few things we agree on.
 
Mandrin,

Thanks for the writeup on this. I saw Grober's lecture and then the commercial version of his sonic club, and that's the first thing I wondered about - whether it would also capture data like his version in the lecture. But, it would probably raise the price too much for the intended market.

I particularly liked the "hand speed" graph where you can sort of gauge the quality of the release by the magnitude of the deceleration occurring just before impact. I still find it interesting that this deceleration that many of us had assumed was real is in apparent conflict with Nesbit's data.

Jay
 

Bronco Billy

New member
Man I Wish Nm Would/Could Discuss This... Mandrin Vs Nm is a Real Education...

Mandrin,

Thanks for the writeup on this. I saw Grober's lecture and then the commercial version of his sonic club, and that's the first thing I wondered about - whether it would also capture data like his version in the lecture. But, it would probably raise the price too much for the intended market.

I particularly liked the "hand speed" graph where you can sort of gauge the quality of the release by the magnitude of the deceleration occurring just before impact. I still find it interesting that this deceleration that many of us had assumed was real is in apparent conflict with Nesbit's data. Jay
:)
 
Mandrin,

Thanks for the writeup on this. I saw Grober's lecture and then the commercial version of his sonic club, and that's the first thing I wondered about - whether it would also capture data like his version in the lecture. But, it would probably raise the price too much for the intended market.

I particularly liked the "hand speed" graph where you can sort of gauge the quality of the release by the magnitude of the deceleration occurring just before impact. I still find it interesting that this deceleration that many of us had assumed was real is in apparent conflict with Nesbit's data.

Jay
Jay,

You picked up on me hinting to Dr Nesbit’s experimental measurements when compared to the experimental data gathered by Dr Grober. Dr. Nesbit is nmgolfer’s scientific idol but I had, after a careful look at his papers, my reservations. I am very much aware how complex measuring equipment is difficult to validate. It needs almost an independent research effort along other lines to confirm and establish truly its worth. Dr Grober’s system however, being scientifically extremely robust and having an elegant simplicity, is extremely trustworthy. Anyone still hanging on to this lame idea of the hands not slowing in the down swing better wake up to reality. :D

p.s.: I have the impression that my analysis is a bit more than simply a 'write up', having spent many hours analyzing and producing graphical illustrations aiming to explain things as simply as possible. :p
 
Jay,

You picked up on me hinting to Dr Nesbit’s experimental measurements when compared to the experimental data gathered by Dr Grober. Dr. Nesbit is nmgolfer’s scientific idol but I had, after a careful look at his papers, my reservations. I am very much aware how complex measuring equipment is difficult to validate. It needs almost an independent research effort along other lines to confirm and establish truly its worth. Dr Grober’s system however, being scientifically extremely robust and having an elegant simplicity, is extremely trustworthy. Anyone still hanging on to this lame idea of the hands not slowing in the down swing better wake up to reality. :D

p.s.: I have the impression that my analysis is a bit more than simply a 'write up', having spent many hours analyzing and producing graphical illustrations aiming to explain things as simply as possible. :p

Agreed. "Write up" is understated but that's kind of my style. I've been messing with a pendulum model and I know how much work it is (at least for me) - still looking for a algebra tool that will do the equation work for me. ;) Also, I find the torque graphs interesting - especially the shoulder torque which I don't think has been talked about much. Of course, in the 2 segment model, the shoulder torque would be a combination of the shoulder muscle doing work plus the upper torso rotating the shoulders. But, it's still a very useful model. Thanks again.

Jay
 
Me too...

When I said I didn't see anything new at the PGA Show, I was not entirely correct.

I had heard about the Sonic Golf trainer, but I had not seen it yet.

I demoed it, and was very impressed because it worked flawlessly.

There are several things I could do with it with students.

It currently falls in the "I'll get it when I settle down into a permanent location/studio."

Dr. Grober is a very smart guy, and we had a nice little talk about a few things we agree on.

The good Dr. was two booths away from my booth. I took a demo and loved the feedback. It wouldn't take much practice to change a bad pattern but you would still have to organize the club face. I think the merits for good players wanting to be excellent players are abound. I would have loved to have seen an actual demo with a poor golfer to see any dramatic changes.

I will get a unit once my indoor studio is assembled in the Fall.

I can still hear the sound!!!!
 
Feel the force...

Yes that sound is so Star Wars...

Anyone tried buying two, plugging them into speakers and reenacting, Darth Vader V Luke at the range? :D

Well done Mandarin, let's hope the good Doctor provides a data interface for the researchers out there to help us all figure out this game.
 

Guitar Hero

New member
I remember the X-factor device back in the early 90's that would beep to let you know if the turn matched the settings. They hyped this up as the best device golf has ever seen. It was using bio-feedback as well and it failed. If the sonic golf system teaches positive transfer dynamic motor skills then it will work. From what I saw at the show it does not and I am sure it will fail as well. There are better and less expensive ways to have lasting results. Don’t be fooled by titles in ones name as this does not guarantee anything. Just a thought?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
John,

I remember the X-factor device back in the early 90's that would beep to let you know if the turn matched the settings. They hyped this up as the best device golf has ever seen. It was using bio-feedback as well and it failed. If the sonic golf system teaches positive transfer dynamic motor skills then it will work. From what I saw at the show it does not and I am sure it will fail as well. There are better and less expensive ways to have lasting results. Don’t be fooled by titles in ones name as this does not guarantee anything. Just a thought?

With all due respect,

This is a great device, and like ANY golf "learning aid," it is very dependent on the teacher to utilize it in a way that helps the student learn.

Just like your fine products.

The ONLY drawback to the Sonic Golf device is the price, which I am sure will eventually come down.
 

Guitar Hero

New member
With all due respect,

This is a great device, and like ANY golf "learning aid," it is very dependent on the teacher to utilize it in a way that helps the student learn.

Just like your fine products.

The ONLY drawback to the Sonic Golf device is the price, which I am sure will eventually come down.

You are correct on the price. If it was less I would buy it and see it it works. I have no problem trying new stuff but I do have a problem with stuff over $150. Just my take.
 
I remember the X-factor device back in the early 90's that would beep to let you know if the turn matched the settings. They hyped this up as the best device golf has ever seen. It was using bio-feedback as well and it failed. If the sonic golf system teaches positive transfer dynamic motor skills then it will work. From what I saw at the show it does not and I am sure it will fail as well. There are better and less expensive ways to have lasting results. Don’t be fooled by titles in ones name as this does not guarantee anything. Just a thought?
Guitar Hero,

I have perhaps not read all of your posts but it seems to me that you are quite generous with your criticism. Is ‘positive transfer dynamic motor skills’ the only way to golf heaven? :)

Only the future will tell the value of the sonic golf system. However if an instructor I would immediately buy one unit. Be assured I am not impressed by titles. ;)

BTW, I am still quite interested to get some information about your intriguing concept of ‘sweet spot balanced motion and path‘. I would love to have a closer look. :p
 
Well done Mandarin, let's hope the good Doctor provides a data interface for the researchers out there to help us all figure out this game.
dominicscaife,

In his email to me, which he allowed to be posted, Dr Grober is very clear about the future developments for the ‘sonic golf system‘. So it is just a matter of time and it will all be available.



"wow, didn't realize you had done that.

many thanks for the kind comments.

fyi, while the existing commercial system does not have a means of
obtaining the raw data, we have plans for a future product which will
have a USB link to a laptop on which you will be able to do data
analysis of the type i show in my talk. the sensor already broadcasts
the complete data set but the receiver uses only that subset necessary
to generate the audio. we started with just the audio because we think
that is what will be useful to most golfers. but there have been many
people who have asked for the raw data. that will come eventually.

thanks for your interest,

bob grober"

 
dominicscaife,

In his email to me, which he allowed to be posted, Dr Grober is very clear about the future developments for the ‘sonic golf system‘. So it is just a matter of time and it will all be available.



"wow, didn't realize you had done that.

many thanks for the kind comments.

fyi, while the existing commercial system does not have a means of
obtaining the raw data, we have plans for a future product which will
have a USB link to a laptop on which you will be able to do data
analysis of the type i show in my talk. the sensor already broadcasts
the complete data set but the receiver uses only that subset necessary
to generate the audio. we started with just the audio because we think
that is what will be useful to most golfers. but there have been many
people who have asked for the raw data. that will come eventually.

thanks for your interest,

bob grober"


Thanks Mandrin

Ill start saving now:)
 
There are those who like to discuss the subject of exercises to strengthen muscles, others prefer strongly to talk diet and food. To counter weight a bit both muscle and stomach talk a post to tickle the neurons. :D For some it still remains rather a mystery that the hands slow down and doing so increase clubhead speed. However it is only natural to feel this way as it is only rather recent that this has become a matter of interest. It is tied to the believe of the ‘heavy hit’ or increasing the ‘effective mass’ of the club head and this implies that there is active muscular action during impact. However hands slowing down is actually more related to the notion of letting the club ‘free wheel‘ through impact.

For those interested in the subject follow this link .
 
For those who haven"t watched it yet, the video of Dr. Grober talking at a conference in Aspen about golf and the sonic golf system is very entertaining (if you are a golf nerd). Just go to google videos and search his name.
 
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