Standing up in the downswing

[carland]

What is the "circle delivery path" Brian talks about in his video? It sounds like that is something to be avoided. What kind of swing fault causes it?

Is a "straight line delivery path" where the hands move down in a straight line from the top of the backswing to the point of impact? Seems like what would happen if you tried to use an aiming point. Thanks for any explanation.

 

[Matt 4-L]

The main reason for me coming up out of my posture was too steep of a shaft and in my case the root cause was the lack of axis tilt. If you’re coming into the ball with no axis tilt you have two choices, either stand up and raise the handle of the club or thrust your hips in an attempt to get some last second axis tilt (goat humping). The problem with those two alternatives to burying the club in the ground is they are not very consistent; you will suffer from blocks and pulls.

I just adjusted my setup so I incorporated axis tilt right from the start (think Stuart Appleby). Instead of having my head in the middle of my stance I focused on tilting my spine away from the target at setup which put my head more to the right. This shortens your right side and I simply focused on maintaining that axis tilt through out the swing. Just because you start out with axis tilt is no guarantee that you will maintain it though, if you sway off the ball allowing your hips to move out instead of rotating (losing the angle of your right leg) you will lose the axis tilt you started with. Also, if you stand up at the top of your back swing you may lose it there too.

For myself I was also trying to play a little more centered pivot which also made it hard to maintain the axis tilt, I realized that I needed to lean right to keep the axis tilt. Once you get to the top of your swing maintaining your axis tilt it is soooo much easier to start the downswing, I simply bump my hips left (maintaining axis tilt) and then rotate hips and the axis tilt becomes side bend and you can let the side bend go somewhere into your follow thru.

If you are able to get the side bend into impact and hit some fat shots you may need to adjust ball position a bit or how much you bump your hips to the left to start the downswing and if still hitting fat shots you may need to look at your release point as Brian suggested in his video.

 

[Erik_K]

I find that I can swing "harder" if I stand up. I also have a herniated disc and turning doesn't work for me. The more upright my posture the easier it is on my back.

Doesn't everyone have a circle delivery path?

Using TGM techno-speak, I thought you had a circle delivery path, or a straight line delivery path. You can play with either.

Erik

 

[faux_maestro]

Using TGM techno-speak, I thought you had a circle delivery path, or a straight line delivery path. You can play with either.

Erik

BUT aren't all delivery paths circular?

 

[Erik_K]

I suppose (and this also depends on the frame of reference). To me the straight line path is perhaps, 'less circular' vs the wider path pertaining to the sweep release.

Erik

 

[faux_maestro]

I suppose (and this also depends on the frame of reference). To me the straight line path is perhaps, 'less circular' vs the wider path pertaining to the sweep release.

Erik

Pretty sure this is correct.

 

[dbl]

BUT aren't all delivery paths circular?

I think you have to define geometry and terms but I can imagine several delivery paths that are not. Particularly for smaller shots you can get non circular very easily.

 

[faux_maestro]

I think you have to define geometry and terms but I can imagine several delivery paths that are not. Particularly for smaller shots you can get non circular very easily.

Possible. I was thinking in terms of full shots. I thought I heard or read something from Brian or staff stating that there was no such thing as a straight line delivery path, just a feel, but I could be wrong.

 

[Erik_K]

What is the "circle delivery path" Brian talks about in his video? It sounds like that is something to be avoided. What kind of swing fault causes it?

Is a "straight line delivery path" where the hands move down in a straight line from the top of the backswing to the point of impact? Seems like what would happen if you tried to use an aiming point. Thanks for any explanation.

From the face on view, the hands trace a wide arc (in the form of a circle) - the sweep release (see Sam Snead).

Players like Hogan or Garcia have more of a snap release - way more bending of the shaft and/or club head lag. I would not go as far as saying that the sweep release needs to be avoided. What we are seeing is that it not does not matter when one uses TrackMan. I guess the Doppler Radar doesn't care about club head lag. Impact alignments - the interplay of path and face angle(s) is what counts.

Erik

 

[lia41985]

I agree - cramped and tucked up just does not look "golf-like" to me... why take an address position that requires you to contort yourself...

I have the still images from Lia's swings at impact and address and he has a large goat directly in front of him and takes an enormous pelvic thrust (will post if Lia allows)

Not only are you allowed--I'd greatly appreciate it!

 

[golfbulldog]

Not only are you allowed--I'd greatly appreciate it!

Lias movie - YouTube

Thanks for letting me do this - Lots of interesting things...your head moves back... most pros move down...but some move down with a neck dip...see Ross Fisher in goat humper 1...others like Hogan and Tommy Bolt move down like Hogan said to take the address posture in Modern Fundamentals (moving down onto a shooting stick)... whole spine moves down in one piece... Looks less contorted that way to me... Some raise the handle...others keep the address shaft plane at impact...lots more too...

 

[lia41985]

Thanks a lot for that! It's very difficult for me to stay that bent, get that open, and have the handle moving through low like that (with the shaft returning to the address plane).

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks a lot for that! It's very difficult for me to stay that bent, get that open, and have the handle moving through low like that (with the shaft returning to the address plane).

Maybe because you are too bent over at address... and your intention is different to the pros' intention?

Why not try and get close to their positions...just for fun!

 

[dschultz6072]

Lias movie - YouTube

Thanks for letting me do this - Lots of interesting things...your head moves back... most pros move down...but some move down with a neck dip...see Ross Fisher in goat humper 1...others like Hogan and Tommy Bolt move down like Hogan said to take the address posture in Modern Fundamentals (moving down onto a shooting stick)... whole spine moves down in one piece... Looks less contorted that way to me... Some raise the handle...others keep the address shaft plane at impact...lots more too...

Wow I got a good laugh out of that movie. The best part is I know I look exactly like him through the ball. I told my pro I'm trying to stop humping the goat and he got a good kick out of it. I demonstrated where the goat was and he concurred.

 

[Erik_K]

Thanks a lot for that! It's very difficult for me to stay that bent, get that open, and have the handle moving through low like that (with the shaft returning to the address plane).

I think I am about to embark on the same Journey....

 

[TYORKE1]

Anymore on this , I am standing up a little thru the ball, backswing looks really god on camera but in the transitionI am alrready raising, still hit it from inside but getting shaft plane to vertical

 

[JEREMY5577]

After being obsessed with trying to fix my own goat humping problem, the best way to fix it in layman's terms was to... Think of the right shoulder and left hip as counterbalancing partners. What ever direction the right shoulder takes the left hip will do the opposite to stay balanced. So on the downswing I fire my right shoulder down and out towards the target line and the left hip has to fire towards the tush line and clear or you will fall over.

So if your having trouble with humping goats: Coming out of transition have a plan for your right shoulder. Direct it down and out towards the ball. All the gound force info works the same way, it just seems to feel easier.

It will feel like you are on top of the ball, but chasing under.

 

[Lifter]

After being obsessed with trying to fix my own goat humping problem, the best way to fix it in layman's terms was to... Think of the right shoulder and left hip as counterbalancing partners. What ever direction the right shoulder takes the left hip will do the opposite to stay balanced. So on the downswing I fire my right shoulder down and out towards the target line and the left hip has to fire towards the tush line and clear or you will fall over.

So if your having trouble with humping goats: Coming out of transition have a plan for your right shoulder. Direct it down and out towards the ball. All the gound force info works the same way, it just seems to feel easier.

It will feel like you are on top of the ball, but chasing under.

JEREMY5577, I think you've got it about right. A gentleman named "Matt 4-L" also had a very insightful comment here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15814-standing-up-downswing-3.html#post199759

I once heard someone insightfully observe that thrusting the hips off the tush line is "the most shallowing move in golf." It really aids the golfer trying to flatten the shaft at the last second.

Years ago, when I used to slide my head way way ahead of the golf ball, I used to shallow that out by coming off the tush line.

Now, I tilt my head back behind the ball and keep it behind the ball. That provides width so I no longer need to employ "the most shallowing move in golf" at the last second.

 

[Erik_K]

JEREMY5577, I think you've got it about right. A gentleman named "Matt 4-L" also had a very insightful comment here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15814-standing-up-downswing-3.html#post199759

I once heard someone insightfully observe that thrusting the hips off the tush line is "the most shallowing move in golf." It really aids the golfer trying to flatten the shaft at the last second.

Years ago, when I used to slide my head way way ahead of the golf ball, I used to shallow that out by coming off the tush line.

Now, I tilt my head back behind the ball and keep it behind the ball. That provides width so I no longer need to employ "the most shallowing move in golf" at the last second.

Yup. Standing up is a last ditch attempt to make room for the club. Another drill is to make practice swings and look at some object behind and to the right (for a right handed golfer) of the golf ball. You can put another ball, tee, bag, etc in that area. Then make swings focusing on pulling down with the arms, while keeping the head back. It might feel like you are actually going to hit up on the ball quite a bit and for those people who are used to coming in very steeply this will be a truly different feeling.

 

[jbrunk]

Its only a problem if it is the direct cause of poor ballflight. I think alot of people do it to help them fit the club or back the shaft up to the inside often because of an insufficient backswing.

Sometimes you scare me.