Swing Sensations

[birdie_man]

Not picking or slamming on you, but just a little curious as to what your agenda is?

Maybe he really did hear that Dante guy say it....

Dunno.

...

 

[birdie_man]

So long as the feel has mechanics behind it eh.

 

[c21heel]

Birdie_Man, I own Dante's book. Bought it and read it about five years ago...it is one of the best books that I have ever read. Although Dante may have endorsed the same thing, I'm not sure that he explained it like Brian did. I'll have to re-read the book now.

 

[ldeit]

Using the look to monitor the feel helps to keep you from overcooking whtever you are working on. As Tong said, the feel will change as the movement becomes ingrained.

ldeit

 

[Brian Manzella]

A pretty well read guy.....

I have read as much Golf Instruction as anyone.

Dante's book is a very good one.

I am PRETTY DAMN SURE MY SLICE CURE (Neutral grip, twistaway backswing, turn around the spine downswing, TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing ubder the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) has never been taught before WITH ALL THOSE "pieces" in the HISTORY of golf.

How do I know?

Because I wrote the damn book—Brian Manzella—and I know that I WAS the only teacher in history who fixed slicers like that.

Until, this web site, now there are more.

Edz, who is a disciple of another teacher/competitor, often thinks HE has invented things as well (I am sure he has), and I NEVER question his "Edzdrills(copywrite 2003)."

Ed is a budding teacher, who—if he were smart—would HANG ON MY EVERY WORD and NEVER 'jump me.'

One day, I'll need an army, dude, so shape up or ship out.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Swing sensations never work forever.

Let's say you try to "remember" the exact feel of a perfect shot you hit, and try to reproduce that exact sensation again and again. This procedure will eventually fail to produce that perfect shot, even though the sensation remains exactly the same.

This is because a change in the actual motion is necessary to maintain the same feel. Our body gets desensitised to the same feels, and it needs to exaggerate whatever we are doing more in order to get the same feels over time.

That's why it's so important to have someone constantly checking your swing, or use a video camera, etc.

Or know WHAT it is you are trying to do, instead of just 'what it feels like."

Like Homer (and Leo ) said.

 

[EdZ]

I have read as much Golf Instruction as anyone.

Dante's book is a very good one.

I am PRETTY DAMN SURE MY SLICE CURE (Neutral grip, twistaway backswing, turn around the spine downswing, TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing ubder the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) has never been taught before WITH ALL THOSE "pieces" in the HISTORY of golf.

How do I know?

Because I wrote the damn book—Brian Manzella—and I know that I WAS the only teacher in history who fixed slicers like that.

Until, this web site, now there are more.

Edz, who is a disciple of another teacher/competitor, often thinks HE has invented things as well (I am sure he has), and I NEVER question his "Edzdrills(copywrite 2003)."

Ed is a budding teacher, who—if he were smart—would HANG ON MY EVERY WORD and NEVER 'jump me.'

One day, I'll need an army, dude, so shape up or ship out.

Gee, Brian - a 'disciple of another teacher'? Only if you count every single teacher/book/player I have ever learned from/read/watched (which includes you, and many others on this site and others btw).

I like to think for myself, despite your desire to put me in a 'camp'. Not sure why you feel the need to do that (with me or anyone else for that matter, must be some sort of insecurity, how ironic).

Shape up or ship out? How juvenile of you. In response to your post claiming a closed motion on the backswing and axis tilt were "100%" your original idea, I responded that in my view that was incorrect. You can disagree. Great, good for you. I happen to be quite well read on the topic of golf instruction, and disagree with you.

But obviously, you can't handle that.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Poor Ed.

Gee, Brian - a 'disciple of another teacher'? Only if you count every single teacher/book/player I have ever learned from/read/watched (which includes you, and many others on this site and others btw).

I like to think for myself, despite your desire to put me in a 'camp'. Not sure why you feel the need to do that?

You are a moderator/have your own little section of a competitor's web site and you just taught with the guy at a little clinic he did.

Are you a moderator/have your own little section/ and teach clinics with a bunch of other guys I don't know about?

Give me a break.

Shape up or ship out? How juvenile of you. In response to your post claiming a closed motion on the backswing and axis tilt were "100%" your original idea, I responded that in my view that was incorrect. You can disagree. Great, good for you. I happen to be quite well read on the topic of golf instruction, and disagree with you.

I have never heard another teacher who taught twistaway THE WHOLE SWING like me. And well read or not, you haven't spent a 10th as much time as me studying all the available material in golf instruction.

But obviously, you can't handle that.

Like others in this thread have noted, you always try to stick needles in me. You must not think being nice to me will help your career. Your choice.

As long as you don't say anything stupid like you will do from time-to-time, you do a good job with your posts, for the most part.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Most if not all teachers these days fix slicing by introducing quitting and leakage and they bastardise the whole thing so what Brian is saying is the correct long term cure!

I use it myself a lot of the time and it works.

I have read as much Golf Instruction as anyone.

Dante's book is a very good one.

I am PRETTY DAMN SURE MY SLICE CURE (Neutral grip, twistaway backswing, turn around the spine downswing, TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing ubder the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) has never been taught before WITH ALL THOSE "pieces" in the HISTORY of golf.

How do I know?

Because I wrote the damn book—Brian Manzella—and I know that I WAS the only teacher in history who fixed slicers like that.

Until, this web site, now there are more.

Edz, who is a disciple of another teacher/competitor, often thinks HE has invented things as well (I am sure he has), and I NEVER question his "Edzdrills(copywrite 2003)."

Ed is a budding teacher, who—if he were smart—would HANG ON MY EVERY WORD and NEVER 'jump me.'

One day, I'll need an army, dude, so shape up or ship out.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Release Swivel

Brian,

There seems to be some contention amongst teachers as to a slice cure.
You endorse a twistaway both back and down. I gather this is for most, not all. I gather that some recommend a takeaway swivel, a release swivel, and a follow though swivel(after the hinging of course!).

When do you differentiate?
For whom?
Are there other options?

Others' opinions?

 

[EdZ]

Most if not all teachers these days fix slicing by introducing quitting and leakage and they bastardise the whole thing so what Brian is saying is the correct long term cure!

I use it myself a lot of the time and it works.

Never said it didn't work, just that I don't believe Brian is "100%" the creator of such an approach. In fact, it IS a very helpful approach. Especially when combined with extensor action to 'limit' the twist.

Credit where due. A concept foreign to many. And nobody is lacking in (public) credit more than Homer Kelly when it comes to golf instruction.

Brian, if you would get over yourself and see past your ego, you might just go farther. A point you have failed to 'get' over, and over and over again. "Got It"? Nobody is 'attacking' you. Just disagreeing with you. Can you handle that?

If anyone else had written what you wrote ("100% credit"), I would have said the same. That I disagree with that assesment. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing to do with who said it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Duck and Jive.

Ed, I found dozens of other "digs" of yours.

Dude, you WORK for a competitor, and it makes you biased.

As far as my EGO goes, you are speaking out of an OLD playbook.

The people who actually come to see me know "what time it is."

Keep listening to all that stuff, keep buying in, and we'll see how much it "holds me back."

Give me another break.

 

[EdZ]

Ed, I found dozens of other "digs" of yours.

Dude, you WORK for a competitor, and it makes you biased.

As far as my EGO goes, you are speaking out of an OLD playbook.

The people who actually come to see me know "what time it is."

Keep listening to all that stuff, keep buying in, and we'll see how much it "holds me back."

Give me another break.

I don't see how disagreeing with your sometimes outrageous claims is a 'dig', but whatever Brian. You seem to think everyone is out to get you. Not the case for me, despite what you think. Not biased in the least bit, in fact I'm trying to help you more than you appear to realize.

 

[Brian Manzella]

?

Ok ed.

Answer this:

"Never Slice Again" (Manzella-Neutral left hand grip, Right hand taken from the twist right hand grip, twistaway backswing (NOT JUST THE LEFT HAND/RIGHT HAND BUT THE ARM POSITION), turn around the spine downswing (THE PIANO FINGERS), TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing under the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) is original as a COMPLETE concept or not?

 

[tongzilla]

I am PRETTY DAMN SURE MY SLICE CURE (Neutral grip, twistaway backswing, turn around the spine downswing, TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing ubder the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) has never been taught before WITH ALL THOSE "pieces" in the HISTORY of golf.

You have covered yourself pretty well here . However, if we take each of the above core ideas separately, i.e. one by one, is it really that original (rhetorical question)? What's original is the way you have put together these different fixes and your unique presentation on the subject. I appreciate that and I’m sure many other members here will agree.

I talk to EdZ on msn from time to time and I really value his individual (i.e. does not blindly worship any single instructor/theory) thinking. I debate him on all kinds of golf related topics and he always gives a well thought out reply independent of any “camp”. Any argument hinting that EdZ has something against Brian Manzella solely because he is a moderator of another golf forum is totally unfounded. The fact is that Brian often exaggerates what he’s trying to say (which always has an element of truth) to the point where some people find it disturbing. And I don’t blame him – it’s part of the marketing you need to thrive in this business.

 

[EdZ]

Ok ed.

Answer this:

"Never Slice Again" (Manzella-Neutral left hand grip, Right hand taken from the twist right hand grip, twistaway backswing (NOT JUST THE LEFT HAND/RIGHT HAND BUT THE ARM POSITION), turn around the spine downswing (THE PIANO FINGERS), TURN THE CLUBFACE OFF THE PLANE AND LAG THE SWEETSPOT while you add tilt and swing under the stick and hit the inside-aft quadrant then hit the box on the way to maining your tilt and being wedding ring up while you have stopped the hips and allowed the arms to swing by) is original as a COMPLETE concept or not?

As you have described it, yes brian. Nobody else describes it with those words. There have been many players who have used this move, or a variation of it, the so called 'closed to open' or 'closed to closed' motion, as contrasted to the 'open to closed' motion that is the typical swinger's move. Nicklaus spoke about this difference in Golf My Way. Many who have used the thought of 'keeping the clubface looking at the ball' to encourage exactly the arm motion you speak of.

Among today's players, Tom Lehman demonstrates this rather well, and Palmer before him. Those who have also discussed some, if not all, of the concept you describe include Dante, as mentioned, as well as Mindy Blake (same move of the arm, different grip). The 'square to square' approach also touched on this. It is generally a move that encourages a 'hitter's' motion and feel. Those who tend to 'arch' the wrist at the top often fall into this group.

It is certainly a very useful way to help people who have an open clubface. The trend when using the 'twist' is to then hit a pull hook, which forces a player to learn the downplane shoulder and inside aft quadrant. Or to drive the legs to keep from hitting hooks, or both (Trevino).

Personally, I think the biggest benefit of the approach is that it conveys the feel of lag pressure better than most drills/fixes, allowing people to 'hear' compression for the first time. Especially useful when hitting shots with the right hand thumb and forefinger off the club.

As a long term playing though, it can be useful, but ONLY if the amount of 'twist' is montitored (which makes it questionable under a pressure situation IMO). The 'manual' nature of the move can be offset to some degree by the use of 'extensor action', or monitoring the amount of bend in the right wrist (Dante's view). Trajectory control can be more difficult as well.

As I have written before, I like to use the phrase "let extensor action be the limit of the twist", as I find this is the best way to monitor over twisting. It can also be useful to double check your plane angle when using this move, as too flat a plane angle can lead to the shanks, and too steep will keep you hitting pulls.

The root reason for the need for the twist, and for the fact that the majority of people hit slices, is the design of the club. Physics dictates that the club face 'wants' to be in line with the force acting on it. This causes the 'natural' motion of the clubface to open going back to put the sweetspot in line with the shaft. There are two general approaches to counter this - 'allow' the rotation back (swinger) or 'resist' (hitter). Many slicers begin with a pretty decent backswing, but fail to realize that they must CLOSE the clubface on the downswing via rotation, specifically of the lead forearm, the 'knuckles to the ground' of full roll. As the pivot improves, the need for independent arm roll is lessened.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST thing that the vast, vast majority of players who can't break 80 don't get. Rotation of the lead forearm. The second being that force must move DOWNplane to both arms straight (aiming point, a divot in front of the ball, driving the ball 'into' the ground)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok, I get it now!

Let me sum up Edz and LeoTong's posts and continued desire to stick needles in me...

My ego "holds me back." —Edz

Brian exaggerates to "better market himself." —LeoTong

Nothing Brian says is really very original. —both

Brian is a good teacher but others are just as good. —both

So and So has memorized the book better. —both

Ok, I get it!

So why do all of these golfers travel from all over the world and the US to work with me, many of whom have tried the other TGM guys and then report to the world that I was much better at teaching them to improve their games?

Why do I have such a large following on this web site?

Why do so many love my videos?

I don't get it.

 

[c21heel]

EdZ

If I remember correctly, Tom Watson has a book out that mentions the left forearm roll as Hogan's secret?

 

[EdZ]

If I remember correctly, Tom Watson has a book out that mentions the left forearm roll as Hogan's secret?

I've not heard about Watson's mention of it, but it is certainly arguable as a candidate for 'the secret' (or variations on it, such as the left thumb 'under' the shaft at top and finish).

 

[drewitgolf]

The "real" Brian personality doesn't doesn't shine through in the printed medium. Non-verbal communication is just as important as the verbal. Just my opinion.