Swing Sensations

[mandrin]

As you have described it, yes brian. Nobody else describes it with those words. There have been many players who have used this move, or a variation of it, the so called 'closed to open' or 'closed to closed' motion, as contrasted to the 'open to closed' motion that is the typical swinger's move. Nicklaus spoke about this difference in Golf My Way. Many who have used the thought of 'keeping the clubface looking at the ball' to encourage exactly the arm motion you speak of.

Among today's players, Tom Lehman demonstrates this rather well, and Palmer before him. Those who have also discussed some, if not all, of the concept you describe include Dante, as mentioned, as well as Mindy Blake (same move of the arm, different grip). The 'square to square' approach also touched on this. It is generally a move that encourages a 'hitter's' motion and feel. Those who tend to 'arch' the wrist at the top often fall into this group.

It is certainly a very useful way to help people who have an open clubface. The trend when using the 'twist' is to then hit a pull hook, which forces a player to learn the downplane shoulder and inside aft quadrant. Or to drive the legs to keep from hitting hooks, or both (Trevino).

Personally, I think the biggest benefit of the approach is that it conveys the feel of lag pressure better than most drills/fixes, allowing people to 'hear' compression for the first time. Especially useful when hitting shots with the right hand thumb and forefinger off the club.

As a long term playing though, it can be useful, but ONLY if the amount of 'twist' is montitored (which makes it questionable under a pressure situation IMO). The 'manual' nature of the move can be offset to some degree by the use of 'extensor action', or monitoring the amount of bend in the right wrist (Dante's view). Trajectory control can be more difficult as well.

As I have written before, I like to use the phrase "let extensor action be the limit of the twist", as I find this is the best way to monitor over twisting. It can also be useful to double check your plane angle when using this move, as too flat a plane angle can lead to the shanks, and too steep will keep you hitting pulls.

The root reason for the need for the twist, and for the fact that the majority of people hit slices, is the design of the club. Physics dictates that the club face 'wants' to be in line with the force acting on it. This causes the 'natural' motion of the clubface to open going back to put the sweetspot in line with the shaft. There are two general approaches to counter this - 'allow' the rotation back (swinger) or 'resist' (hitter). Many slicers begin with a pretty decent backswing, but fail to realize that they must CLOSE the clubface on the downswing via rotation, specifically of the lead forearm, the 'knuckles to the ground' of full roll. As the pivot improves, the need for independent arm roll is lessened.

This is the SINGLE BIGGEST thing that the vast, vast majority of players who can't break 80 don't get. Rotation of the lead forearm. The second being that force must move DOWNplane to both arms straight (aiming point, a divot in front of the ball, driving the ball 'into' the ground)

EdZ,

Nice post. There is a lot of interesting stuff crammed into only a few lines.

I like to use the “curling under” move of the lead hand fingers with the irons (The Square-to-Square Golf Swing, 1972), and lead forearm rotation with the longer clubs.

An interesting article about forearm rotation appeared in ‘Golf Illustrated’, Dec 1999, by Al Barkov, ‘Forearm Rotation – The Secret for Power and Control’.

‘When Ben Hogan talked about the golf swing during his last years, he spoke almost exclusively about (lead forearm) rotation. It was like a mantra. ‘

‘It is not a new concept. Hogan did not invent it. But is has not always been explained properly, even by Hogan.’

mandrin

 

[c21heel]

While we are on the topic of sensations, how many of you use pulling as swing thought on the downswing? I seem to hit the ball better when I focus on pulling through the impact area. For me, pulling seems to help with both maintaining lag and reducing my tendency to come over the top.

 

[birdie_man]

I try to think of pulling....

Left shoulder up is a universally good one....Brian's right....it might be the best....one of the best.

I'm sure I have SOME Hit in my stroke...but if I try for it or think of it I don't seem to hit it as well or consistent.

...

BTW mandrin,

I like to use the “curling under” move of the lead hand fingers with the irons (The Square-to-Square Golf Swing, 1972), and lead forearm rotation with the longer clubs.

Me too.....more open face with longer clubs...more forearm rotation......less open face with shorter clubs.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Do you ever notice...

That when you ask a really good question on these forums, NOBODY answers it?

EdZ, LeoTong and who ever else wants to answer, here it is RE-phrased:

If Manzella has an ego that—according to Edz and some others—"Holds him back," and he exaggerates for marketing 'effect' as LeoTong(zilla) says, and even though he is a good teacher, there are some just as good, and others who have memorized the 6th edition TGM book better, and that NOTHING he teaches is really original,

What THEN acounts for the success he IS having? What accounts for all the forum members, the dozens apon dozens of golfers who have taken schools and lessons with him from ALL over the World and the USA after learning about his teaching from the internet? What accounts for the over 50% of those students who have worked with other AI's and been MUCH MORE satisfied with Manzella's teaching because they finally IMPROVED THEIR GAMES? What accounts for the 1000's of videos sold and overwhelmingly positively reviewed?

What in the heck is it?

Dammit, I want an answer from the geniuses!

 

[Steve Khatib]

That when you ask a really good question on these forums, NOBODY answers it?

EdZ, LeoTong and who ever else wants to answer, here it is RE-phrased:

If Manzella has an ego that—according to Edz and some others—"Holds him back," and he exaggerates for marketing 'effect' as LeoTong(zilla) says, and even though he is a good teacher, there are some just as good, and others who have memorized the 6th edition TGM book better, and that NOTHING he teaches is really original,

What THEN acounts for the success he IS having? What accounts for all the forum members, the dozens apon dozens of golfers who have taken schools and lessons with him from ALL over the World and the USA after learning about his teaching from the internet? What accounts for the over 50% of those students who have worked with other AI's and been MUCH MORE satisfied with Manzella's teaching because they finally IMPROVED THEIR GAMES? What accounts for the 1000's of videos sold and overwhelmingly positively reviewed?

What in the heck is it?

Dammit, I want an answer from the geniuses!

I am a self professed genius so I will answer: it is the ability to disect swings and apply practical solutions from varied avenues and still adhere to principle in a real world way that has empathy with golfers!

 

[tongzilla]

That when you ask a really good question on these forums, NOBODY answers it?

Brian, sorry for the belated reply, I'm on holiday at the moment.

Let me sum up Edz and LeoTong's posts and continued desire to stick needles in me...

My ego "holds me back." —Edz

Brian exaggerates to "better market himself." —LeoTong

Nothing Brian says is really very original. —both

Brian is a good teacher but others are just as good. —both

So and So has memorized the book better. —both

Ok, I get it!

I didn't say NONE of your stuff is unoriginal. Your ability to take any golfer and figure out what will work for him/her as easy and fast as possible is what separates you from the pack. Honestly, you are one of the finest instructors that I've been taught by. And since when did I relate your teaching ability to how well you can memorise the book? Do a search, I have never said anything like that! And for the record, how well someone can quote the book verbatim has almost zero correlation (maybe even negative) to how fast they can improve a golfer.

So why do all of these golfers travel from all over the world and the US to work with me, many of whom have tried the other TGM guys and then report to the world that I was much better at teaching them to improve their games?

They want to see if you are better. And if they think you are, then they will say so.

Why do I have such a large following on this web site?

Because you keep it active with interesting, informative, thought provoking and controversial posts, audios and videos.

Why do so many love my videos?

I don't get it.

Because the presentation is entertaining...and heck, sometimes it even works!

Brian, you know me well enough to know that I won't "stick needles in you".

 

[EdZ]

it is the ability to disect swings and apply practical solutions from varied avenues and still adhere to principle in a real world way that has empathy with golfers!

I would agree with that assesment. A rare skill and talent in the golf world.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok, Ok...

$1000 bet.

Get a Lie Detector test, Edz attached.

Question #1 - "Would you like you or Brian to "get the mike?"
Ed's answer - "Me."

(I'm all for pulling for yourself)

Question #2 - "Would you like Lynn or Brian to "get the mike?"
Ed's answer - "Lynn."

(no kidding, but this is the crux of what I am saying )

Now as far as Leo goes, he just likes to debate—so do I—but is a really good kid. Ed, you ain't bad either.


But here are the REAL answers to the questions:


Brian, does your ego "hold you back?"

Heck no.

Remember, it's GOOD to be King, and I'm am—and have always been—a threat. That's it, pure and simple.

At some point, someone who IS King will rather have the money made off of me than the glory, and that will be that.

Do you exaggerate to "better market himself?"

Nope.

I just speak the truth. No, I speak A LOT MORE of the truth then the next guy, and by comparison, it looks BIG.

I don't speak ALL of the truth, though.

Why?

Because you can't handle the truth.

No, really.

Is anything you say really very original?

Yup.

Of course they said this about Homer too.

The deal is this, I invented a SYSTEM, and sure, 90% of the parts were "spare parts," but the SYSTEM is mine and so is the damn other 10%!

You are a good teacher, but are others are just as good?

There probably ARE teachers just as good. I just haven't seen any of them.
Soon as I do, I'll be right there with my camera.

So why do all of these golfers travel from all over the world and the US to work with you?

I am a pretty good salesman, my articles, videos and posts help a bunch. And the reviews are pretty impressive.

Why do the many golfers of whom have tried the other TGM guys and then work with you, report to the world that you were much better at teaching them to improve their games?

Because I am a better teacher, with better information.

Why do you have such a large following on this web site?

It is the only place you can go and get good solid information for free and tell the guy giving you the information that he is an unoriginal, ego head.

Oh, and I'm pretty funny too.

Why do so many love your videos?

Because they are gret info presented in a understandable way, and they are entertaining (points for Leo).

 

[EdZ]

You sure like to assume quite a lot of what I think, and what 'you think' I say Brian.

In answer to your question, I'd like Homer to get the public credit he deserves.

 

[Millrat]

On Ego,

Remember, it's GOOD to be King, and I'm am—and have always been—a threat. That's it, pure and simple.


Ego never hurt the King of All Media!

Actually, I bet you'd make a great golf radio host!

CW

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Remember, it's GOOD to be King, and I'm am—and have always been—a threat. That's it, pure and simple.


Ego never hurt the King of All Media!

Actually, I bet you'd make a great golf radio host!

CW

He's great on the radio no matter what subject. That's one of the big things about Brian, besides the fact that he can teach golf like a mutha !$@#%, he is very entertaining. I had a friend sit down and watch 'Confessions' on his own all the way through (he hates golf by the way) and when I asked him why he said, "The dude is fun to watch".

 

[Brian Manzella]

Funny you should ask...

First NEW Manzella Show podcast since Katrina, up later tonight.