Talk amongst yourselves...

[Brian Manzella]

Every decent golf swing has a point in it where the hips slow to a crawl, often this occurs when the golfer starts to go into extension.

Just depends on the desired swing direction vs. aim vs. low point placement.

 

[spktho]

I do like the flexion/to extension though, good video showing that!

Can you clarify exactly what body part you are referencing going from flexion to extension? I see a lot of his body parts going from flexion to extension as well as some going from extension to flexion.

 

[gmbtempe]

First the flip, now the stall. He better get this worked out or he might end up being a hacker like Luke Donald.

I don't see a stall, what am I missing?

 

[gmbtempe]

Can you clarify exactly what body part you are referencing going from flexion to extension? I see a lot of his body parts going from flexion to extension as well as some going from extension to flexion.

His spine, he is the anti nick faldo.

He is almost standing up at the top of the backswing, then compresses down in transition, then right before impact he starts to stand back up again, so much so IMO his pelvis is almost working backwards in the late downswing.

This extreme he goes to is probably not the best for most of us, but if you want to get more distance I would say you would rather do what he does than what Faldo did (at least the latter part of his career).

 

[natep]

I don't see a stall, what am I missing?

His hip rotation slows dramatically and comes to almost a complete halt before impact. Like Brian said above, you can see the rotation stop when he starts extending the spine. (Slow mo at the end of the clip)

Here's Luke Donald, for comparison.

 

[spktho]

His spine, he is the anti nick faldo.

He is almost standing up at the top of the backswing, then compresses down in transition, then right before impact he starts to stand back up again, so much so IMO his pelvis is almost working backwards in the late downswing.

This extreme he goes to is probably not the best for most of us, but if you want to get more distance I would say you would rather do what he does than what Faldo did (at least the latter part of his career).

Ah, ok I think I see what you are talking about, but his "spine" really doesn't change flexion/extension much. More like a pelvic tilt. Maybe you are looking more at the hip joints and knees resulting in the "compress down" and "stand up".

 

[gmbtempe]

So if we accept that he does stall, its irrelevant that his hips are about some ungodly amount?

 

[gmbtempe]

His hip rotation slows dramatically and comes to almost a complete halt before impact. Like Brian said above, you can see the rotation stop when he starts extending the spine. (Slow mo at the end of the clip)

So would this be a "kinetic chain" type move he is utilizing in his swing?

 

[natep]

Looks like it to me.

I've seen it suggested that the golf swing pivot should be non-stop rotation thru impact, and this video below was used as an example. Does it look like Bubba is doing the same thing? I dont think so.

 

[gmbtempe]

Looks like it to me.

I've seen it suggested that the golf swing pivot should be non-stop rotation thru impact, and this video below was used as an example. Does it look like Bubba is doing the same thing? I dont think so.

I just see him running out of ability to keep rotating physically, well at least if he wants to keep his feet on the ground. I guess trying to get past the dispute I prefer the moves of Watson, Toms, DJ to the many poor players (myself included) who about come to a complete stop into impact.

 

[spktho]

I thought this fits real well here. I for one am looking forward to art's findings.

This will get complicated, so I will provide some insight, and ask that you expand on "New Ideas" so I can best provide a balanced supportive scientific response to your other very important questions. Is it a book, video, just your personal quest etc. Thanks.

The quality of the swing is 100% affected by the movement of the pelvis during the downswing AND follow thru for many and complicated reasons. In my world of research however, the most important aspect of the movement of the pelvis AND the left and right hips, is to maintain 'dynamic stability margin' during the swing, and secondarily to 'position' the pelvis correctly just prior to/during impact.

To accomplish both of these requirements, after reaching the top of the back swing, the left hip should rotate counterclockwise at a rate faster than the right hip, (and this 'screw axis of rotation' is different for each golfer). After reaching the peaks of the kinematic sequence, approximately 2/3 of the duration of the downswing, the right hips rotation predominantly controls the motion of the pelvis as the left foot is 'posted', and right foot comes up on the toe as impact occurs, and follow thru is accommodated by the combined AND now, much slower rotational speeds of both hips (and of course the pelvis).

When the hips stop moving is different for everybody, and is controlled by very significant interactions between the pelvis and the upper body regarding torques, moments of inertia, and of course the angular velocities and accelerations created during the early part of the downswing.


Question 2, yes the upper body angular rotation continues after the pelvis and hips stop rotating, late in the follow thru, and to positions that relate to the degree of shoulder and upper body ranges of motion.

Question 3 is the question I believe of critical importance as the professional golfing community seems to have adopted the general approach that maximum hip/pelvis velocity is VERY important to maximum club head velocity, which IMO is not correct. This year, I hope to turn this hypothesis into 'golf truth' and show, and hopefully prove that in all cases, slower is better when considering the realities that both club head velocity, PATH, AND POSITION are the true measures of the quality of all swings.

As for the power the hips/pelvis provide, in a previous response to a question by Brian last year, using data from Dr. Steve Nesbitt's work, I estimated that only about 10% of that horrendous effort got to the club head, which can much better be supplied by the other power/torque generators used during the swing.

 

[natep]

I just see him running out of ability to keep rotating physically, well at least if he wants to keep his feet on the ground. I guess trying to get past the dispute I prefer the moves of Watson, Toms, DJ to the many poor players (myself included) who about come to a complete stop into impact.

I think I understand the distinction you're making (about the hips slowing down due to reaching the limits of their range of motion vs. slowing the hips down intentionally before they reach their limit of RoM?). But in either case they're slowing down.

 

[art]

Dear spktho,

Thanks for your comment, and some of the research has already been done and can be used to answer the next post and start to present my 'integrated' understanding of the downswing for us to discuss.

This was the next comment (chronologically) by...

I just see him running out of ability to keep rotating physically, well at least if he wants to keep his feet on the ground. I guess trying to get past the dispute I prefer the moves of Watson, Toms, DJ to the many poor players (myself included) who about come to a complete stop into impact.

The reason the hips/lower body/pelvis slow down and stop is simply the result of the upper body accelerating (rotationally) and PUSHING OFF the much smaller (moment of inertia) lower body.

I call this 'inside the kinematic sequence', and it is DIFFERENT for everyone, and slightly different for every swing, and every club.
The 'magnificence' and beauty, is that each of our bodies is 'capable' of optimizing the contribution of each of the pieces of this kinetic chain, or as I like to view it, the contribution of each of the bodies 'torque motors' that accelerate the club head to maximum speed at impact.

So, hopefully in a clear descriptive way, here is an overview of every full downswing.

(1) From the reversal in direction of the golf club, the club, hips/pelvis, torso, lead arm and club FLY IN FORMATION,( all at equal angular velocities) for the first 1/3 of the down swing (approximately 0.100 seconds of a 0.300 second downswing), then,

(2) The upper body elements (above the pelvis) which weigh twice that of the lower body,have a larger moment of inertia, and have much more torque generating power PUSH BACK on the pelvis/hips slowing that element down from a peak of around 400 degrees a second (415-522 per TPI 3D Bio mechanics Report- Interpreting the Data), as the torso continues to accelerate (more slowly) to a peak of about 600 degrees a second, ((629-764) then,

(3) The lead arm, powered mostly by the torque generating power of the lead shoulder somplex, accelerates to 900 degrees a second (888-1038) , and this peak, and that of the torso occur at about 2/3 into the downswing, or at approximately 0.200 seconds AND THIS IS THAT MAGIC POINT as sometimes referred to by others.

In my world of power, dynamics and stability, this IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF TIME IN THE DOWNSWING, for many scientifically related reasons. For this discussion though, it is this hopefully clear sequence that is responsible for THE SHAPE and timing of how the hips/pelvis slows down.

Finally, a serious word of CAUTION as there are not any more significant EXTREMES to this kinematic sequencing than Buba Watson and Rory McIlloy, (whose full kinematic sequence AND SOMEWHAT MISLEADING explanation was published on pages 76-77 of the December 2011 issue of that other major Golf magazine).

My point is, lets learn from these extremes, but not hold them up as standards, or goals to attain. IN FACT, TRYING TO EMULATE EITHER could be very dangerous for most of the golfers in the world.

 

[mgranato]

Thanks for sharing, Art. I really like the caution about trying to "copy" an extreme without possessing the physical attributes to be extreme. Safe to say that it's pie-in-the-sky futility for someone with limited flexibility, speed, and just overall poor athleticism to try to emulate/copy the dynamic details of Bubba's swing? Or for that matter, teaching that person to do so? I liken it to me, with my spherically enhanced silhouette, trying to run and move like Usain Bolt.

 

[coach]

My point is, lets learn from these extremes, but not hold them up as standards, or goals to attain. IN FACT, TRYING TO EMULATE EITHER could be very dangerous for most of the golfers in the world.

Exactly right Art

 

[gmbtempe]

I think I understand the distinction you're making (about the hips slowing down due to reaching the limits of their range of motion vs. slowing the hips down intentionally before they reach their limit of RoM?). But in either case they're slowing down.

I think they do slow down, if its on a graph I bet the initial muscles that create the movement have a peak speed shortly after firing then slowly depreciate. I would imagine this is even the case for a David Toms who seems to be rotating at a very constant speed.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Thank you Art!!

Gold

 

[JEREMY5577]

Fantastic post art!

 

[Michael Finney]

most important question yet - are bubba's hips maxed out "range of motion wise' nearing impact?

be careful with the answer.....






and great post, art

 

[gmbtempe]

most important question yet - are bubba's hips maxed out "range of motion wise' nearing impact?

and great post, art

before IMO, until he jumps, then creates a little extra.

=