Teachers: What is the hardest thing to fix?

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greenfree

Banned
Here's another article by Tom Wishon. The bold font paragraph is interesting as well as the one's below that.


A Tom Wishon post to the Spinetalkers Forum

From: Tom Wishon <tww@wishongolf.com>
To: SpinetalkersForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:38:58 -0700
Subject: RE: [SpinetalkersForum] Shaft Lag

Dave, et. al.:

I did not provide those photos on the iseekgolf.com site to accompany the article I wrote. I did not see them either, other wise I would have nixed the post impact photo because that is very misleading in reference to what I believe and say about the action of the shaft BEFORE impact. Twice in my past career I had the chance to borrow a high speed camera with which I have seen the "bending forward action of the shaft" for LATE release swings and the "shaft straight at impact" for early release swings. I've yet to see a situation in which the shaft is bending backward, what I call "shaft lagging".

Going at it from the other direction with the able assistance of my engineering mentor of the past 13 yrs, it is simply not possible under
normal swing and normal shaft flex situations for a shaft to arrive at impact flexed backward. As long as the golfer maintains a wrist cock angle, and as long as the golfer maintains positive acceleration of the arm/club on the downswing, whatever flex the golfer generates at the beginning of the downswing is maintained until they start to unhinge the wrist cock angle.

Once the golfer begins to unhinge the wrist cock angle, the arms begin to slow down as the club accelerates to its top velocity. If you look at any slow motion video of a late release swing, you can see this because the club covers a whole lot of ground during which the arms don't move very far. This action is what causes the head to push the shaft to bend forward. If the wrist cock release happens early in the downswing, the shaft goes through this forward bend shape well before impact, such that it has the time to rebound backward to a straight position at impact. If the wrist cock release occurs very late, this is when the shaft arrives at impact flexed a little forward.

Another way to verify this action comes from being able to measure the clubhead velocity all the way through the downswing. With early release golfers, you see that they achieve their highest clubhead velocity at the moment the wrist cock release is fully completed - after that the club begins to slow down such that the head velocity at impact is lower than it was at the moment of their full release. Not so with late release golfers - they reach their full clubhead speed right at impact.

From all of this, we do believe that the only possible way that a golfer can have the shaft flexed backward in what we call a "shaft lag" position is if they somehow were able to reach impact without fully releasing the wrist cock angle - if this were possible for the golfer to do this without injuring themselves and without missing the ball, the fact that the arms still contain a fair amount of energy to keep their velocity would allow the possibility of the shaft still being flexed a little backwards. I've mentioned before that the only shot in the game I can think of this being possible is one of Tiger Woods' stinger shots that he can hit with a long iron or fwy wood to keep the ball really low.

While we're at this, over the past few years, we've also tried to look into this matter of "why do some golfers seem to generate more head velocity with a different shaft flex or different bend profile in the shaft design than others." Some people want to ascribe this to one shaft having a higher tip velocity than another - as if one shaft could "buggywhip" faster into impact than another. After applying everything I know and my engineering advisors know about the physics of the action of the shaft in the swing, and after
consulting with a couple of Ph.D's in biomechanics who are also "golf science nuts", we feel the explanation is far more in the field of
biomechanics and how one body reacts to the bending action of a shaft vs how it reacts to a different bending action in a different shaft.
For golfers who have any sense of feel for the bending action of the shaft during the swing, conscious or even sub-conscious, there is no question in my mind that golfers can generate a little different swing action with one shaft design vs another. The first place this ever hit me was back when I used to spend a little more time out on the PGA Tour with players for whom I was assigned the task of designing clubs. I would see reps from the different shaft companies come around with whatever new shaft design they were pushing, trying to get the pros to hit balls on the range with a club that had their shaft in it. It always amazed me that when the pro hit the shaft and didn't like it, the pro would not hit more than two shots with the club before tossing it back to the rep and refusing to hit it anymore.

When I would probe this with the players out of curiosity to hear what it was they didn't like, it was never scientific for sure, but their
comments got me to thinking on this. Common for such a comment was, "if I kept hitting that shaft, I would have to change something to make it feel like I want my shaft to feel, and that would screw me up." This always stuck with me as we kept doing our shaft performance research over the past several years.

At any rate, and to keep this short, I think the main reason a golfer can experience very measurable differences in distance with one shaft vs another comes more from the effect the feel of the shaft has to their swing TIMING. When launch angle and spin rate are the same between two shafts but one sends the ball off at a higher clubhead speed and ball speed, it invariably comes because of the effect the feel of the shaft is so "right" for the golfer that they sub-consciously at first, but consciously as they hit more balls with the shaft, are able to "freewheel" the club through impact with a much better level of swing timing.

Anyway, still talking to my biomechanic golf nuts about conceiving of some way to test for this. But for now, after all this many years in shaft fitting, I tend to think that with some golfers, not all, it is possible for some little changes like Kempton's 2 gram change to MOI and changes in the bending feel of the shaft to automatically send the golfer into a much more FREE release with little to no manipulation, which in turn accounts for the higher clubhead and ball speed.

My 3 cents worth

TOM
 
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SteveT

Guest
Whipsnap is a 'reaction' to the flow of kinetic energy flowing from your body and arms to the most flexible part of your golf club .. the shaft tip ... droop and tip torque combine for whipsnap.

If you've never experienced 'whipsnap' through Impact, your shafts are too stiff for your swing speed.

Edit: OMG!!!! I composed this comment while reading page 4 of the topic thread .. and I didn't read what Tom Wishon had wrote about whipsnap 'reaction' feel ..!!! See ... Tom is as smart as I am ...LOL

You can feel whipsnap in your shafts with free swings, but it really emerges when you Impact the ball sweetly ... it's almost as if you feel the ball being flung off the clubface ... and the clubhead wants to follow the ball too ...!!!!!!!!!!

Run .. don't walk .. to your nearest golf store who sell used clubs and buy a set of ladies clubs to discover whipsnap impact ... because it's orgasmic and sweeeeet ... LOL
 
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greenfree

Banned
Not exactly he didn't say everyone should play more flexible shafts. He said different shaft profiles can affect timing and feel, which can mean the opposite in that some can have shafts that are too flexible it's golfer "feel "dependant. It's a 2 way street your better off to walk than run off half cocked yelling" ladies clubs please." ...LOL.

Quote from Tom W.

For golfers who have any sense of feel for the bending action of the shaft during the swing, conscious or even sub-conscious, there is no question in my mind that golfers can generate a little different swing action with one shaft design vs another. At any rate, and to keep this short, I think the main reason a golfer can experience very measurable differences in distance with one shaft vs another comes more from the effect the feel of the shaft has to their swing TIMING. When launch angle and spin rate are the same between two shafts but one sends the ball off at a higher clubhead speed and ball speed, it invariably comes because of the effect the feel of the shaft is so "right" for the golfer that they sub-consciously at first, but consciously as they hit more balls with the shaft, are able to "freewheel" the club through impact with a much better level of swing timing.
 

greenfree

Banned
I suppose whipsnap is not a precise scientific term.It's a relative term.Someone might feel like they are cracking a whip but will look nothing like the extreme wrist lag of Sergio Garcia on slomo video.

But thinking hands low and clubhead high will get you more whipsnap than what you have now.



Ah! that's the question does one need more?
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Just to add more confusion to this whole shaft flex debate, i switched to x-stiff shafts and have actually PICKED UP swing speed with the EXACT same shaft. How 'bout 'dem apples?

I found i was swing swinging slowly (on purpose) with the weaker flex shafts to give me (for whatever reason) time to square the face. With the x-stiff i just whale at it and i don't have to worry about it.
 

natep

New
Just to add more confusion to this whole shaft flex debate, i switched to x-stiff shafts and have actually PICKED UP swing speed with the EXACT same shaft. How 'bout 'dem apples?

I found i was swing swinging slowly (on purpose) with the weaker flex shafts to give me (for whatever reason) time to square the face. With the x-stiff i just whale at it and i don't have to worry about it.

Yes I find with regular shafts if you swing too hard it wont release correctly. It has to be timed just right.
 

greenfree

Banned
Just to add more confusion to this whole shaft flex debate, i switched to x-stiff shafts and have actually PICKED UP swing speed with the EXACT same shaft. How 'bout 'dem apples?

I found i was swing swinging slowly (on purpose) with the weaker flex shafts to give me (for whatever reason) time to square the face. With the x-stiff i just whale at it and i don't have to worry about it.


Interesting and it seems to jive with Wishon's idea's on this. Are you sure it's an x-stiff and not a ladies shaft that was mis-labled...:eek:.. lol.:)
 
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SteveT

Guest
Just to add more confusion to this whole shaft flex debate, i switched to x-stiff shafts and have actually PICKED UP swing speed with the EXACT same shaft. How 'bout 'dem apples?

I found i was swing swinging slowly (on purpose) with the weaker flex shafts to give me (for whatever reason) time to square the face. With the x-stiff i just whale at it and i don't have to worry about it.

Well, there ya go ... you have matched your downswing shaft loading profile to a proper shaft ... all according to the TT ShaftLab system (which unfortunately is not offered any more). Jim, have you ever determined your downswing shaft loading profile with the TT ShaftLab ... is it a single peak, double peak or ramp up profile?

And yes, you must slow down your swing speed to play with more flexible clubs, but you partially gain distance with shaft unloading ... just like the hickory shafts and Bobby Jones hitting it 250 yards.
 
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SteveT

Guest
Sounds like greenfree is struggling mightily with the revelation that maybe he should give up his macho stiff shafted clubs and drop down to those flaccid softer shafts to match his anemic clubhead speed .... oh well ... LOL :D ;)
 
Steve - I still haven't heard you say whether there are any actual benefits to "whipsnap" other than that it feels nice. I don't know that anyone would disagree that a soft shaft feels "nice" in the same way that a soft mattress feels nice - initially...

BTW - I thought that you would be an advocate for fitting shaft flex by reference to loading patterns, not swing speed!
 

greenfree

Banned
Sounds like greenfree is struggling mightily with the revelation that maybe he should give up his macho stiff shafted clubs and drop down to those flaccid softer shafts to match his anemic clubhead speed .... oh well ... LOL :D ;)

Ah! there it is i knew it was only a matter of time, the personal attack. First you don't know what kind of shafts i use or my clubhead speed and that's all you got as a personal attack? lame, your credibility on the subject is next to zero. Instead of attacking me why don't you use that great intellect of yours to prove your assertion that we should all use " Ladies Clubs". I know you must have some solid proof we should all play your recommended clubs.



It took a long time for you to come up with that lame attack, your usually quicker with the answers to all the threads, i mean i know you have been away but your like a poster on roids. You didn't just stay at a holiday inn, you must own one...lol.
 
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