The hips

[coachwalls]

I can tend to be a little OCD and it helps me to think through a new concept out loud in an attempt to understand it. In this case out loud is posting on this forum.

It seems that Art has proved that setting the rear hip before the back swing to facilitate dynamic balance and rotating the forward hip faster than the rear hip to start the down swing is the way the best players in the world swing. Now, I'm grossly over simplifying what Art has said and I'm not trying to make a detailed analysis of what Art has posted here. I'm going to assume for arguments sake that what Art has researched and posted here is true.

My point and my question is why would the hips react the way they do in a really good swing? I would bet that very few good players thought through what they were doing with their hips to the kind of detail that Art has. The movement of their body occurs because they are in good balance and they are making the most dynamic movement they can make through the ball to create both distance and accuracy.

When you watch someone hit a golf ball it's pretty easy to determine if they've got "it" or if they don't. If you watch a lot of golf live, not necessarily pro golf, you know what I'm talking about. There is a definite difference between a dynamic swing and a swing that just moves the ball down the fairway.

What separates these two people? What is the person with the good swing doing/thinking that is different? When they hit a golf ball what is their intent? How does the thought process of good players contribute to how they swing the golf club?

I theorize that there is a specific intent to the force that they generate that is very similar among good players.

I still haven't figured out how to embed video here so I'll just post the links below. I'm not concerned much more than the set rear hip on the back swing and the forward hip opening/rotating faster than the rear hip during the down swing. And just to clarify I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just thinking out loud and hoping this will lead to some understanding on my part.

Jamie Sadlowski High speed video - YouTube

Slow-motion video of Pro Baseball Hitting - YouTube

 

[mgranato]

Watching the Wimbledon finals got me thinking about this very subject too. I found some 3D footage of Federer hitting his forehand. What struck me the most was how much his upper torso moved/rotated compared to a relatively motionless hip structure. He is off the ground by the time he's impacting the ball, so there are no ground forces preventing his hips from moving with the torso which tells me there's some sort of intent to restrict one while releasing the other. Of course, I could be way off in my summation and would like to hear educated comments from those in the know.

 

[magicmarker]

It seems that Art has proved that setting the rear hip before the back swing to facilitate dynamic balance and rotating the forward hip faster than the rear hip to start the down swing is the way the best players in the world swing.

Someone did post a video of Nick Watney seemingly doing it. (I think) Art said he had no evidence that any tour pros were doing this, but he is attempting to prove that better dynamic stability via BBKIB will lead to increased distances with less dispersion. At all levels. If I am wrong I apologize, I just didn't realize this was something the best players in the world are currently doing.

 

[hp12c]

Watching the Wimbledon finals got me thinking about this very subject too. I found some 3D footage of Federer hitting his forehand. What struck me the most was how much his upper torso moved/rotated compared to a relatively motionless hip structure. He is off the ground by the time he's impacting the ball, so there are no ground forces preventing his hips from moving with the torso which tells me there's some sort of intent to restrict one while releasing the other. Of course, I could be way off in my summation and would like to hear educated comments from those in the know.

This is good, love the way he turns/coils his torso than launches off his back/right foot into the ball. Sometimes when Im having issues while playing I Imagine Im a left handed tennis player hitting a two handed back hand ground stroke in tennis to help me.

 

[hp12c]

I can tend to be a little OCD and it helps me to think through a new concept out loud in an attempt to understand it. In this case out loud is posting on this forum.

It seems that Art has proved that setting the rear hip before the back swing to facilitate dynamic balance and rotating the forward hip faster than the rear hip to start the down swing is the way the best players in the world swing. Now, I'm grossly over simplifying what Art has said and I'm not trying to make a detailed analysis of what Art has posted here. I'm going to assume for arguments sake that what Art has researched and posted here is true.

My point and my question is why would the hips react the way they do in a really good swing? I would bet that very few good players thought through what they were doing with their hips to the kind of detail that Art has. The movement of their body occurs because they are in good balance and they are making the most dynamic movement they can make through the ball to create both distance and accuracy.

When you watch someone hit a golf ball it's pretty easy to determine if they've got "it" or if they don't. If you watch a lot of golf live, not necessarily pro golf, you know what I'm talking about. There is a definite difference between a dynamic swing and a swing that just moves the ball down the fairway.

What separates these two people? What is the person with the good swing doing/thinking that is different? When they hit a golf ball what is their intent? How does the thought process of good players contribute to how they swing the golf club?

I theorize that there is a specific intent to the force that they generate that is very similar among good players.

I still haven't figured out how to embed video here so I'll just post the links below. I'm not concerned much more than the set rear hip on the back swing and the forward hip opening/rotating faster than the rear hip during the down swing. And just to clarify I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just thinking out loud and hoping this will lead to some understanding on my part.

Jamie Sadlowski High speed video - YouTube

Slow-motion video of Pro Baseball Hitting - YouTube

For me JMO I dont like to think to much about grip, arms, hips, shoulders, feet etc etc when Im going to hit a shot if Im thinking about what any of those thing are doing or are gonna do while in motion an ugly shot will happen for sure. dont get me wrong planning how to play a hole is key and all the planning for is done behind the ball once I step into the batters box its all business, see ball, see target throw my clubhead toward the target and the ball gets in the way. Does it alway work out no thats why my short game is also key, gotta get up and down.

 

[sweetser]

What separates these two people? What is the person with the good swing doing/thinking that is different? When they hit a golf ball what is their intent? How does the thought process of good players contribute to how they swing the golf club?
I theorize that there is a specific intent to the force that they generate that is very similar among good players.

Versus a hack who is always rushing, I have wondered if a good player internally "experiences" his golf swing as much longer than the scant seconds it is, like a slowly unfolding universe with all kinds of time to do what he wants.

 

[art]

I can tend to be a little OCD and it helps me to think through a new concept out loud in an attempt to understand it. In this case out loud is posting on this forum.

It seems that Art has proved that setting the rear hip before the back swing to facilitate dynamic balance and rotating the forward hip faster than the rear hip to start the down swing is the way the best players in the world swing. Now, I'm grossly over simplifying what Art has said and I'm not trying to make a detailed analysis of what Art has posted here. I'm going to assume for arguments sake that what Art has researched and posted here is true.

My point and my question is why would the hips react the way they do in a really good swing? I would bet that very few good players thought through what they were doing with their hips to the kind of detail that Art has. The movement of their body occurs because they are in good balance and they are making the most dynamic movement they can make through the ball to create both distance and accuracy.

When you watch someone hit a golf ball it's pretty easy to determine if they've got "it" or if they don't. If you watch a lot of golf live, not necessarily pro golf, you know what I'm talking about. There is a definite difference between a dynamic swing and a swing that just moves the ball down the fairway.

What separates these two people? What is the person with the good swing doing/thinking that is different? When they hit a golf ball what is their intent? How does the thought process of good players contribute to how they swing the golf club?

I theorize that there is a specific intent to the force that they generate that is very similar among good players.

I still haven't figured out how to embed video here so I'll just post the links below. I'm not concerned much more than the set rear hip on the back swing and the forward hip opening/rotating faster than the rear hip during the down swing. And just to clarify I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just thinking out loud and hoping this will lead to some understanding on my part.

Jamie Sadlowski High speed video - YouTube

Slow-motion video of Pro Baseball Hitting - YouTube

Thanks, coachwalls,

Your thinking 'out loud', on this site, IMO IS RIGHT ON.

Yes, I AM trying with ALL my might and strength to AWAKEN the golfing world, that for YOUR BEST, AND REPEATABLE SWING, "IT'S YOUR DYNAMIC BALANCE", and as you have so clearly pointed out, IF that is correct, again, 'for your best and repeatable swing, "ITS YOUR HIPS, or simply 'BBKIB', not to be cute, but purposely to promote 'RETENTION, NOT CONTROVERSY'.

Yes, coachwalls, if you remember the story with Antonio, the true AUTHOR of BBKIB, even after a SIGNIFICANT change of hitting a driver straight, consistently, for the first time, HE FORGOT, after only a few weeks, so RETENTION is something very important, which I promise to address in a future post.

My passion for BBKIB is STRONG, not because THE APPLIED SCIENCE leading to its discovery is mine, but because ALL THE DATA I HAVE SEEN, NOT just selected pieces, which is usually the case with the THOUSANDS OF GOLF TIPS all golfers are exposed to each year, BUT ALL the data I have seen over these 5 years points to the CRUCIAL NEED FOR DYNAMIC BALANCE, ALWAYS.

AND also, as you inferred, for SMOOTH SWINGS, conscious attention to consistent and repeatable TEMPO/RHYTHM, but more SPECIFICALLY, YOUR BODIES RESONANT TEMPO/RHYTHM, specifically UNIQUE FOR YOU AND THE REQUIRED POWER LEVEL OF THE SHOT.

I will quit with probably my shortest post, THANKING YOU AGAIN for "thinking out loud".

Very sincerely and appreciatively,
art

PS., sorry I forgot to mention HOW IMPORTANT RETENTION IS, and how, genuinely appreciative I am after reading YOUR post, NOT JUST feeling, but now KNOWING that ALL the criticism and rejection has been worth it, because YOU, and MANY others on this site, "get it". So, thanks again.

 

[coachwalls]

I typed a great reply and then hit the wrong button and lost it. Hopefully I remember everything I wrote originally.

I played nine holes this morning and worked on being dynamically balanced. I specifically paid attention to what my hips were doing during the swing. The course was almost empty so I was able to hit two or three balls on every shot.

I watched some old video of my swing yesterday. I have kind of a unique forward press that starts my swing. I turn my hips a little bit to the left and then turn them back to the right on the rebound. My swing kind of follows my hips around to the right. I think there is some old video of my swing linked on this forum somewhere.

I started thinking about my forward press and decided I could use the turn of my hips back to the right to get into the position that Art describes as the beginning of BBKIB. The results were promising. I hit a few shots with irons that went farther than usual. I did fight my tempo a little bit and I also fought my old problem of sliding my hips to the left to start my swing instead of turning my left hip.

It's definitely something I'm going to keep working on. Once in a while I make a swing and can feel all the pieces come together. It feels like one of the videos above where everything loads up the way it should and then sequences and unloads the way it should.

 

[art]

I typed a great reply and then hit the wrong button and lost it. Hopefully I remember everything I wrote originally.

I played nine holes this morning and worked on being dynamically balanced. I specifically paid attention to what my hips were doing during the swing. The course was almost empty so I was able to hit two or three balls on every shot.

I watched some old video of my swing yesterday. I have kind of a unique forward press that starts my swing. I turn my hips a little bit to the left and then turn them back to the right on the rebound. My swing kind of follows my hips around to the right. I think there is some old video of my swing linked on this forum somewhere.

I started thinking about my forward press and decided I could use the turn of my hips back to the right to get into the position that Art describes as the beginning of BBKIB. The results were promising. I hit a few shots with irons that went farther than usual. I did fight my tempo a little bit and I also fought my old problem of sliding my hips to the left to start my swing instead of turning my left hip.

It's definitely something I'm going to keep working on. Once in a while I make a swing and can feel all the pieces come together. It feels like one of the videos above where everything loads up the way it should and then sequences and unloads the way it should.

Dear coachwalls,

Glad you had a few good experiences with BB. What's in store, is a GIANT step forward just as soon as you break the 'forward press' problem that releases the BB position you established.

Unfortunately, most if not all the 'goodness of BBKIB is lost if you do not KEEP IT BACK especially at the end of the set-up, statically.

Don't despair, most of the golfers trying too do this themselves do EXACTLY AS YOU and release the right hip, BB with a forward press.

A suggestion, Coach, when forward pressing, try to push your right hip SLIGHTLY FURTHER BACK as a reaction to the forward press, and KEEP IT THERE, KIB during the transition and downswing.

OF COURSE, with the back swing, it will turn clockwise to your full back swing position, 30 to 45 degrees closed.

Get ready for some fun.

Regards,
art

The other

 

[ZAP]

I still think there are a few of us who would better understand this concept with a video explanation. Brian has been super busy these past few weeks I am sure. My real hope is this will mean he will become more mainstream and we will all have increased access to his ideas and thoughts. The Golf.com videos are just a tease.

 

[art]

Watching the Wimbledon finals got me thinking about this very subject too. I found some 3D footage of Federer hitting his forehand. What struck me the most was how much his upper torso moved/rotated compared to a relatively motionless hip structure. He is off the ground by the time he's impacting the ball, so there are no ground forces preventing his hips from moving with the torso which tells me there's some sort of intent to restrict one while releasing the other. Of course, I could be way off in my summation and would like to hear educated comments from those in the know.

Dear mgranato,

Two questions.

Are there 'golf' examples of a skeleton hitting a golf ball that are available ?

Can I get together with the producers of these incredible videos, and have them produce a BBKIB example ?

Thanks for what to me is a 'significant scientific' moment of GREAT WORTH To my studies, and COMMUNICATION.

Appreciatively,art

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

Versus a hack who is always rushing, I have wondered if a good player internally "experiences" his golf swing as much longer than the scant seconds it is, like a slowly unfolding universe with all kinds of time to do what he wants.

saw the following quote online somewhere and loved it:

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations."

 

[sweetser]

The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations."

It's interesting. Elite musicians have the ability to solo at lightning speed with precision and clarity. A recreational musician tries this, the notes become a jumble and it quickly falls apart. There's a tendency to focus on technique as the be all end all, but if you take a warp-speed solo from Eddie Van Halen or Oscar Peterson and slow it down to a crawl, you can hear them playing the notes in strict adherence to the time signature. They strike the accents precisely, it swings, even at a snail's pace you can snap your fingers to it. There's a theory that this acute and precise sense of time, as opposed to worrying about what your fingers are doing, is the key to elite musicianship. Technique flows from this, and not the other way around. In terms of the distinction between an expert player and a poor player, I wonder if the golf swing is any different.

 

[dbl]

Are there 'golf' examples of a skeleton hitting a golf ball that are available ?

Might not be exactly what you want, but you could look up Mike Austin swinging with his skeleton suit on.

 

[coachwalls]

It's interesting. Elite musicians have the ability to solo at lightning speed with precision and clarity. A recreational musician tries this, the notes become a jumble and it quickly falls apart. There's a tendency to focus on technique as the be all end all, but if you take a warp-speed solo from Eddie Van Halen or Oscar Peterson and slow it down to a crawl, you can hear them playing the notes in strict adherence to the time signature. They strike the accents precisely, it swings, even at a snail's pace you can snap your fingers to it. There's a theory that this acute and precise sense of time, as opposed to worrying about what your fingers are doing, is the key to elite musicianship. Technique flows from this, and not the other way around. In terms of the distinction between an expert player and a poor player, I wonder if the golf swing is any different.

Interesting comments and thoughts.

I played an instrument years ago at what I'll call an intermediate level. I know that the ability to play faster smoothly came with gaining confidence in what I was doing. I remember practicing scales for hours and hours. At first everything was slow and deliberate. As technique and confidence improved speed increased. After awhile the brain would get out of the way and the scale was allowed to happen quickly and precisely.

When I was practicing room clearing in prep of a deployment overseas one of the things the instructors hammered into us was "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." You learn the movements and then try to execute them as smoothly and un-rushed as possible. After lots of practice we were able to clear a room very quickly and safely with a lot less perceived physical effort. It was still very stressful but it was not forced movements. It just happened even when we ran into things that were unexpected.

I believe Art has absolutely nailed it with the idea that balance and tempo are completely related. It's very difficult to have one with out the other. I also believe you have to have the ability mentally to let yourself get out of your way and allow the movements to happen.

I still think that there is a common intent for all good ball strikers that allows them to forget about what they are doing and just allow it to happen. If you are any good at golf I'm sure you've experienced it.

One more thing I thought of while thinking about practicing scales. I remember reading about how Freddie Couples used to warm up. He would take a 3 wood and start hitting ball with a full swing that caused the ball to fly maybe a 1/4 of it's normal distance. From there he would start swinging faster and faster until he was hitting the ball normal distance for a 3 wood.

I think there is something to this. Start slow and smooth and gradually speed up until you start to lose your balance. At that point you back off a little bit until you are able to make balanced swings again. No thoughts, no forced actions, just building confidence and balance.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

saw the following quote online somewhere and loved it:

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations."

I really don't think this applies to golf, i like the quote but not too golf. Golf swing is too short, any compensations you are making is really your brain doing something you should've been doing in the first place to get the ball where you want it to go. Better players just have less compensations thus the brain "interferes" less often.

 

[puttmaster]

Interesting comments and thoughts.

I played an instrument years ago at what I'll call an intermediate level. I know that the ability to play faster smoothly came with gaining confidence in what I was doing. I remember practicing scales for hours and hours. At first everything was slow and deliberate. As technique and confidence improved speed increased. After awhile the brain would get out of the way and the scale was allowed to happen quickly and precisely.

Yes -- as my calloused fingers can attest -- you learn by doing the scales/notes slowly, deliberately AND in perfect time. Over and over and over -- going as slowly as required in order to play the scale perfectly and in perfect time. Gradually, your brain and the proverbial/mythical muscle memory takes over and you can perform the piece as fast as you desire, AS LONG AS you're able to play the scale/notes perfectly and in perfect time. And, your focus shifts from physically pressing/picking the right notes/strings at the right time to hearing and feeling the right notes/sounds at the right time.

I believe practicing the golf swing in the same manner has similar benefits. You go from thinking and feeling mechanics (slo-mo swing practice) to visualizing shots and feeling the necessary motion -- in correct time/sequence/balance -- to produce them (on the course).

 

[hp12c]

I believe practicing the golf swing in the same manner has similar benefits. You go from thinking and feeling mechanics (slo-mo swing practice) to visualizing shots and feeling the necessary motion -- in correct time/sequence/balance -- to produce them (on the course).

Yes I agree, to incorporate a change,addition etc to a golfswing takes time and slow deliberate continued practice is a must as the saying goes one must walk before one can run and a good mirror is essential, video shows what one has done a mirror show what on is doing.

 

[drewyallop]

It's interesting. Elite musicians have the ability to solo at lightning speed with precision and clarity. A recreational musician tries this, the notes become a jumble and it quickly falls apart. There's a tendency to focus on technique as the be all end all, but if you take a warp-speed solo from Eddie Van Halen or Oscar Peterson and slow it down to a crawl, you can hear them playing the notes in strict adherence to the time signature. They strike the accents precisely, it swings, even at a snail's pace you can snap your fingers to it. There's a theory that this acute and precise sense of time, as opposed to worrying about what your fingers are doing, is the key to elite musicianship. Technique flows from this, and not the other way around. In terms of the distinction between an expert player and a poor player, I wonder if the golf swing is any different.

In my view you only have to worry about what your fingers are doing if you lack technique. And technique is developed through long hours of practice exercises and studies designed to improve facility. Once facility is achieved then any rhythm can be played. Same with golf?

 

[mgranato]

Dear mgranato,

Two questions.

Are there 'golf' examples of a skeleton hitting a golf ball that are available ?

Can I get together with the producers of these incredible videos, and have them produce a BBKIB example ?

Thanks for what to me is a 'significant scientific' moment of GREAT WORTH To my studies, and COMMUNICATION.

Appreciatively,art

1. I haven't been able to find any.

2. I would imagine so. Best I can gather, the Ariel Performance Analysis System (APAS) is a 3D digitizing system that does not require any wires or reflectors on the subject which would obviously make it impossible to capture these athletes in live events. Aside from that, I don't know much about it or how many sports they've worked with... looks like a lot of tennis and track and field. My only contribution to this was throwing a few discusses around the yard for this video...