The hips

[sweetser]

In my view you only have to worry about what your fingers are doing if you lack technique. And technique is developed through long hours of practice exercises and studies designed to improve facility. Once facility is achieved then any rhythm can be played. Same with golf?

It makes sense on the face of it but two of the greatest classical pianists ever, Richter and Argerich, did not even practice scales. They woodshedded for sure but in the context of the rhythmic framework of pieces, songs. There's a theory that if you practice scales minus a rhythm or a beat you'll never achieve real expertise or mastery. Daniel Levitan has written books on the brain and music, he talks about a neurological concept called "chunking". When you play in time with accents it gives something like a rhythmic clothesline to hang the music on, the brain is able to read whole groups of notes as a single "chunk" then string these chunks together. This is exactly how an Oscar Peterson does it, his brain is reading whole groups of notes at once whereas the mere mortal is plodding along one note at a time. In the context of an expert golf swing versus a poor golf swing, I think something similar is going on. By their writings, great players like Nicklaus and Jones were acutely aware of everything they were doing in their golf swings, in tournament play Nicklaus would try to do five or six different things in a single swing. I think the great player's brain experiences the swing differently, it's somehow driven by their fine sense of rhythm and timing. A sportswriter once observed, of Rod Carew, that he looks like has more time to hit the ball than other hitters. That kind of thing.

 

[hp12c]

It makes sense on the face of it but two of the greatest classical pianists ever, Richter and Argerich, did not even practice scales. They woodshedded for sure but in the context of the rhythmic framework of pieces, songs. There's a theory that if you practice scales minus a rhythm or a beat you'll never achieve real expertise or mastery. Daniel Levitan has written books on the brain and music, he talks about a neurological concept called "chunking". When you play in time with accents it gives something like a rhythmic clothesline to hang the music on, the brain is able to read whole groups of notes as a single "chunk" then string these chunks together. This is exactly how an Oscar Peterson does it, his brain is reading whole groups of notes at once whereas the mere mortal is plodding along one note at a time. In the context of an expert golf swing versus a poor golf swing, I think something similar is going on. By their writings, great players like Nicklaus and Jones were acutely aware of everything they were doing in their golf swings, in tournament play Nicklaus would try to do five or six different things in a single swing. I think the great player's brain experiences the swing differently, it's somehow driven by their fine sense of rhythm and timing. A sportswriter once observed, of Rod Carew, that he looks like has more time to hit the ball than other hitters. That kind of thing.

Next Golf swing frontier.... hook up golfers to a portable what u call those machines that read what the brain is doing dang it I can remember the picture in real time show the brain changing colors depending what prt of the brain is being activated. Hook up pro golfer and hackers and middle to low cappers and see what part of the brain is being used. What u think guys?

 

[sweetser]

The frontier is old, there's just never been any answers. Jones wrote:

"Rhythm and timing we all must have, yet no one knows how to teach either. Those who are able to sense what it means to 'swing the clubhead' will find that they can thus cover up a multitude of sins, and those who sense it not will find that no amount of striving for perfection in positioning will quite take its place".

 

[Billy McKinney]

Art
Get in touch with me about Gideon Ariel. He's my neighbor and I've known him for 22 years. He's got all kinds of biomechanics imagery tools.

 

[JonWil]

It makes sense on the face of it but two of the greatest classical pianists ever, Richter and Argerich, did not even practice scales. They woodshedded for sure but in the context of the rhythmic framework of pieces, songs. There's a theory that if you practice scales minus a rhythm or a beat you'll never achieve real expertise or mastery. Daniel Levitan has written books on the brain and music, he talks about a neurological concept called "chunking". When you play in time with accents it gives something like a rhythmic clothesline to hang the music on, the brain is able to read whole groups of notes as a single "chunk" then string these chunks together. This is exactly how an Oscar Peterson does it, his brain is reading whole groups of notes at once whereas the mere mortal is plodding along one note at a time. In the context of an expert golf swing versus a poor golf swing, I think something similar is going on. By their writings, great players like Nicklaus and Jones were acutely aware of everything they were doing in their golf swings, in tournament play Nicklaus would try to do five or six different things in a single swing. I think the great player's brain experiences the swing differently, it's somehow driven by their fine sense of rhythm and timing. A sportswriter once observed, of Rod Carew, that he looks like has more time to hit the ball than other hitters. That kind of thing.

Very interesting; some stimulating insights.

 

[art]

Art
Get in touch with me about Gideon Ariel. He's my neighbor and I've known him for 22 years. He's got all kinds of biomechanics imagery tools.

Dear Billy,

Since Dr Ariel was just down the road from me, I was starting a note to mgranato, thanking him for the skeleton posts, and making a promise to follow thru on my plans to contact Dr Ariel from several years ago.

Now, a few posts later, your note, and NO ONE can tell me that this passion we all have to find 'golf truth' isn't being 'orchestrated', by the GREAT MUSICIAN in the sky, yes, in this case clearly, my higher power, my God, and thanks Billy, I will call this very day.

Fond regards, always,
Art

 

[mgranato]

Art, please keep us informed with what comes from the conversation. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[faux_maestro]

It makes sense on the face of it but two of the greatest classical pianists ever, Richter and Argerich, did not even practice scales. They woodshedded for sure but in the context of the rhythmic framework of pieces, songs. There's a theory that if you practice scales minus a rhythm or a beat you'll never achieve real expertise or mastery. Daniel Levitan has written books on the brain and music, he talks about a neurological concept called "chunking". When you play in time with accents it gives something like a rhythmic clothesline to hang the music on, the brain is able to read whole groups of notes as a single "chunk" then string these chunks together. This is exactly how an Oscar Peterson does it, his brain is reading whole groups of notes at once whereas the mere mortal is plodding along one note at a time. In the context of an expert golf swing versus a poor golf swing, I think something similar is going on. By their writings, great players like Nicklaus and Jones were acutely aware of everything they were doing in their golf swings, in tournament play Nicklaus would try to do five or six different things in a single swing. I think the great player's brain experiences the swing differently, it's somehow driven by their fine sense of rhythm and timing. A sportswriter once observed, of Rod Carew, that he looks like has more time to hit the ball than other hitters. That kind of thing.

Getting into the whole music nerd thing, there is a similar concept called "note grouping" written about by James Morgan Thurmond, the idea is that notes must be grouped internally in a different way than on the printed page. This brings an expressive, flowing quality rather than a "thumping" accent on each beat. A musician should play the groupings as a phrase rather than note to note, barline to barline. Interesting stuff for a musician. Similarly in my golf swing I now focus on motions and when to apply forces rather than hitting positions.

 

[sweetser]

Getting into the whole music nerd thing, there is a similar concept called "note grouping" written about by James Morgan Thurmond, the idea is that notes must be grouped internally in a different way than on the printed page. This brings an expressive, flowing quality rather than a "thumping" accent on each beat. A musician should play the groupings as a phrase rather than note to note, barline to barline. Interesting stuff for a musician. Similarly in my golf swing I now focus on motions and when to apply forces rather than hitting positions.

When to apply forces -- this is Jones and Nicklaus, they both wrote endlessly and painstakingly about rhythm and timing, giving the body a chance to sequence properly. This was their #1. What interests me is great players' experiential perception of their own golf swings. Nicklaus and Jones sought the "feel" of an unhurried tempo, even when they were going after it. This created the conditions for playing their very best golf. Their consideration of tempo, their constant underlining of the importance of it, this can't be an accident. I think it's possible that they landed, in their own way, on rhythm and tempo as the means to enable the neurological "chunking", their ability to finely monitor what they were doing in their golf swing, in the process of actually performing their golf swing. This versus a poor player who rushes with no thought or care for tempo, who might experience his golf swing as a two-note affair, in one motion take it back, in the other, swipe it through.

 

[drewyallop]

It makes sense on the face of it but two of the greatest classical pianists ever, Richter and Argerich, did not even practice scales. They woodshedded for sure but in the context of the rhythmic framework of pieces, songs. There's a theory that if you practice scales minus a rhythm or a beat you'll never achieve real expertise or mastery. Daniel Levitan has written books on the brain and music, he talks about a neurological concept called "chunking". When you play in time with accents it gives something like a rhythmic clothesline to hang the music on, the brain is able to read whole groups of notes as a single "chunk" then string these chunks together. This is exactly how an Oscar Peterson does it, his brain is reading whole groups of notes at once whereas the mere mortal is plodding along one note at a time. In the context of an expert golf swing versus a poor golf swing, I think something similar is going on. By their writings, great players like Nicklaus and Jones were acutely aware of everything they were doing in their golf swings, in tournament play Nicklaus would try to do five or six different things in a single swing. I think the great player's brain experiences the swing differently, it's somehow driven by their fine sense of rhythm and timing. A sportswriter once observed, of Rod Carew, that he looks like has more time to hit the ball than other hitters. That kind of thing.

Agree scales are useless for the most part (although the mature Coltrane spent many hours practicing remote modal scales). But etudes, Czerny and Debussy for example, make you practice everything you need to play the instrument with complete facility. But those two in particular can break you too.

 

[faux_maestro]

Agree scales are useless for the most part (although the mature Coltrane spent many hours practicing remote modal scales). But etudes, Czerny and Debussy for example, make you practice everything you need to play the instrument with complete facility. But those two in particular can break you too.

I would argue though that scales and arpeggios are important to a point. Music is made of steps and leaps, scales and arpeggios. But to reach a higher plane (not in golf terms) of playing one must move beyond these basics. It's kinda like the complaint of many about modern golfers and younger good players, that they are all range rats and do swing drills till the cows come home, but they don't know how to play the game, artfully.