The importance of ground forces in the downswing

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James Marshall (Hogan1953)

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I saw this video on youtube and thought it was interesting and relevant to the sequencing in the downswing. From the video it appears that the connection between the vertical forces down into the ground allow more forces in the horizontal axis to be generated. Without the down it is more difficult to apply the rotation and move left.

In the Anti-summit there was some discussion of the shear forces generated in the downswing (although I didn't fully understand their relevance) and this video is in that line. Has anyone tried the Versapulley machine they use at the end of the video?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bRs0uTeAFY[/media]
 
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S

SteveT

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Yup .... GRF's something I have mentioned on this fine forum, but nobody here really appreciates ... and it's the foundation of the kinetic chain too ...!!!!

Everybody talks about the arms and hands and 'plane', but few want to talk about the feet, legs and body, most likely because those body parts are too different from golfer to golfer ... tall, short, skinny, fat, one leg.

Now we have GRF's, which is a step in the right scientific direction. Unfortunately Dr. Phil is only plugging the VersaPulley, which is just a glorified cable pullover machine. How many of you have used a cable pullover stack to train your body core, legs, feet, shoulders, arms, hands, and inadvertently your GRF's? I did.. a lot.

Dr. Phil Wagner didn't give you all the information about GRF's, particularly for the golfswing which combines horizontal thrust, vertical weight and large torsional shear forces. Why do you think golf shoes are cleated?!

Most golfers with homemade golf swing mess up under their feet and don't even 'feel' the GRF's .. which are rather unglamorous hidden forces and difficult to describe. It's easier to look at the 'swinging' arms, hands and club ... less complicated for the uneducated 'visual' mind. Show me how to do it ...

Yes, yes ... it's too complicated to think about your feet and GRF's during the golfswing because the feet are the farthest body part from the brain and the last thing to feeel. Let's talk about flipping, tumbling, planing, hammering, etc., because that's what we can see on videos. Show and tell golf ..... hmmmm ... not scientific.
 
F

footwedge

New member
SteveT said:
Yup .... GRF's something I have mentioned on this fine forum, but nobody here really appreciates ... and it's the foundation of the kinetic chain too ...!!!!

Everybody talks about the arms and hands and 'plane', but few want to talk about the feet, legs and body, most likely because those body parts are too different from golfer to golfer ... tall, short, skinny, fat, one leg.

Now we have GRF's, which is a step in the right scientific direction. Unfortunately Dr. Phil is only plugging the VersaPulley, which is just a glorified cable pullover machine. How many of you have used a cable pullover stack to train your body core, legs, feet, shoulders, arms, hands, and inadvertently your GRF's? I did.. a lot.

Dr. Phil Wagner didn't give you all the information about GRF's, particularly for the golfswing which combines horizontal thrust, vertical weight and large torsional shear forces. Why do you think golf shoes are cleated?!

Most golfers with homemade golf swing mess up under their feet and don't even 'feel' the GRF's .. which are rather unglamorous hidden forces and difficult to describe. It's easier to look at the 'swinging' arms, hands and club ... less complicated for the uneducated 'visual' mind. Show me how to do it ...

Yes, yes ... it's too complicated to think about your feet and GRF's during the golfswing because the feet are the farthest body part from the brain and the last thing to feeel. Let's talk about flipping, tumbling, planing, hammering, etc., because that's what we can see on videos. Show and tell golf ..... hmmmm ... not scientific.
Click to expand...


There's been talk of this before you were born, from the ground up. Sam Snead hitting balls without shoes on his feet etc., etc., your not the pioneer on this and it has been discussed on this forum. You can try and take credit for everything but have you been asked to contributed directly to project 1.68? call Brian and maybe you can contribute directly and get some more credit. Your feet may be the farthest from your brain but their the closest thing to the ground, for most people.:eek:
 
R

Ringer

New
Yeah I sorta pushed this topic a bit at the Anti-Summit and there were some serious nay-sayers there. Dr. Rob Neal was very helpful.

The shear force that we use (that is the force that prevents our feet from sliding) is the force we use to push off the ground with our legs. Not everyone uses this force effectively and it isn't a necessity to create the swing either. We could theoretically swing with our bare feet on ice.... however we would never generate near the power we can with spikes on regular ground.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
footwedge ^^^ .... Sounds like Dr. Phil's video on GRF's has overwhelmed your golffing brainlet ... you have trouble following the lines on the GRF graphs, maybe ...??!!!
 
F

footwedge

New member
SteveT said:
footwedge ^^^ .... Sounds like Dr. Phil's video on GRF's has overwhelmed your golffing brainlet ... you have trouble following the lines on the GRF graphs, maybe ...??!!!
Click to expand...


Never watched it. Another incorrect assumption on your part.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Ringer said:
Yeah I sorta pushed this topic a bit at the Anti-Summit and there were some serious nay-sayers there. Dr. Rob Neal was very helpful.

The shear force that we use (that is the force that prevents our feet from sliding) is the force we use to push off the ground with our legs. Not everyone uses this force effectively and it isn't a necessity to create the swing either. We could theoretically swing with our bare feet on ice.... however we would never generate near the power we can with spikes on regular ground.
Click to expand...

Kudos to you, and I hope you realize there are "lateral" shear forces and "torsional" shear forces underfoot. The torsional forces also adversely affect the knee joints, and the hip joints if you are inflexible or arthritic. Also if you are bowlegged or knock-kneed and your leg Q-angle is screwy, your GRF's will be compromised.

That's why I ask guys who seek help here so many questions about their feet, legs and even their bodies. Forget the arms, hands, clubface and D-plane ... start with the GRF's and then lead into the swing extremities ....!!!!

The golfswing works from the ground up ... (who said that?!).
 
F

footwedge

New member
SteveT said:
Kudos to you, and I hope you realize there are "lateral" shear forces and "torsional" shear forces underfoot. The torsional forces also adversely affect the knee joints, and the hip joints if you are inflexible or arthritic. Also if you are bowlegged or knock-kneed and your leg Q-angle is screwy, your GRF's will be compromised.

That's why I ask guys who seek help here so many questions about their feet, legs and even their bodies. Forget the arms, hands, clubface and D-plane ... start with the GRF's and then lead into the swing extremities ....!!!!

The golfswing works from the ground up ... (who said that?!).
Click to expand...


I said that and it's old news.
 
C

cnadon

New
sources

SteveT said:
Yup .... GRF's something I have mentioned on this fine forum, but nobody here really appreciates ... and it's the foundation of the kinetic chain too ...!!!!

Everybody talks about the arms and hands and 'plane', but few want to talk about the feet, legs and body, most likely because those body parts are too different from golfer to golfer ... tall, short, skinny, fat, one leg.

Now we have GRF's, which is a step in the right scientific direction. Unfortunately Dr. Phil is only plugging the VersaPulley, which is just a glorified cable pullover machine. How many of you have used a cable pullover stack to train your body core, legs, feet, shoulders, arms, hands, and inadvertently your GRF's? I did.. a lot.

Dr. Phil Wagner didn't give you all the information about GRF's, particularly for the golfswing which combines horizontal thrust, vertical weight and large torsional shear forces. Why do you think golf shoes are cleated?!

Most golfers with homemade golf swing mess up under their feet and don't even 'feel' the GRF's .. which are rather unglamorous hidden forces and difficult to describe. It's easier to look at the 'swinging' arms, hands and club ... less complicated for the uneducated 'visual' mind. Show me how to do it ...

Yes, yes ... it's too complicated to think about your feet and GRF's during the golfswing because the feet are the farthest body part from the brain and the last thing to feeel. Let's talk about flipping, tumbling, planing, hammering, etc., because that's what we can see on videos. Show and tell golf ..... hmmmm ... not scientific.
Click to expand...

I've always felt I played best when my feet were working well. But, Steve, could you point to some other sources besides the versapulley in the video for training these muscles/moves? Thanks.
 
ZAP

ZAP

New
That video bored me to tears. I would have liked for him to do some more explaining of the force curves and exactly what the pitcher was doing at each one. Just throwing up the graphs does not do much for me. And where was his white lab coat?
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Ground forces (both horizontal as vertical) are present and indispensable not only in downswing but in all phases of the motion. What is important to understand is that the horizontal forces depend on the friction coefficient, therefore, one could e.g. jump up on ice (only vertical forces) but cannot practically make a golf swing - neither backswing nor downswing.

Cheers
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Yes, yes, Dariusz .... but the horizontal and vertical forces are only the components of the Resultant Force. Try explaining the vectorial resolution of GRF's to those who only look at superficial pictures of golfswings and gossip non-stop about videos.

They see pictures .. I see forces ... that's like kindergarten golf versus scientific golf ... ya think ...??!!!!
 
S

spktho

New
SteveT said:
They see pictures .. I see forces ... that's like kindergarten golf versus scientific golf ... ya think ...??!!!!
Click to expand...

SteveT said:
Yup .... GRF's something I have mentioned on this fine forum, but nobody here really appreciates ... and it's the foundation of the kinetic chain too ...!!!!

Yes, yes ... it's too complicated to think about your feet and GRF's during the golfswing because the feet are the farthest body part from the brain and the last thing to feeel. Let's talk about flipping, tumbling, planing, hammering, etc., because that's what we can see on videos. Show and tell golf ..... hmmmm ... not scientific.
Click to expand...


I see a Narcissistic video coming.
 
I

islandgolf629

New
A "result" of GRF's can easily be seen in pictures of American golfers; specifically, Ben Hogan. However, Non-American golfers still exhibit those same GRF's, but may not be as distinguishable in pictures.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
^^^ Interesting comment, islandgolf ... but which pictures are those?? You know that GRF's are invisible to the naked eye .... :eek:
 
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