birdie_man
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Charles still needs NSA.
The Manzella Project: Charles Barkley
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Question for the gang....
Did Haney actually fix Barkley's hitch?
Is it now gone?
(I don't watch the show)
Did Haney actually fix Barkley's hitch?
Is it now gone?
(I don't watch the show)
Matt 4-L
New
All they are doing is showing him hitting drills, hitting balls off tees. Although, they did have him using the sonic golf club only Haney was doing the swinging of the apparatus while Charles listened in the ear phones and tried to mimic the sound with his swing. You should watch it is quite entertaining. As for the hitch being gone, it’s getting better during the drills but they haven’t showed him on the golf course yet.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
He's honestly not doing THAT bad of a job. Leave out all of the parallel planes stuff he's trying to get him to do ("Flatter Charles. Flatter!") and it's pretty good.
If Haney would just focus on his pivot and forget the plane crap, he could probably fix him pretty good. I'm afraid that making him flatter is going to get in the way of real progress though.
Garth
New
I'm not a big Haney fan or anything, but I do think he's doing a good job so far. As for the "flatter, flatter" stuff... Barkley was so upright before that exaggerating the flat plane is probably a good thing for him at this point. When he swings more "around" and doesn't dip his head 2 feet, he looks like he's well on his way. I'm sure Haney will "fix" him to some degree or else it wouldn't be airing.
agreed. definitely teaching him a method...not looking for the "root" cause.
lots of talk about getting him on a better plane...no talk about why he might be on his current plane (clubface issues).
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fyi, i watched it "on demand" last night, because i can't watch on mondays. they have the first 2 episodes up now.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Don't rush to judge me...
You see, it seems you guys think I am being critical of Haney and he work with Sir Charles.
I have been critical in the past of Hank, specifically I am not a big fan of some of the arm and hand stuff he's done with Tiger.
But I think Tiger's current pivot is fine, and I give Haney credit there.
Once upon a time—like about 1986—I was a big Haney fan.
Of course, I used to think that the 1979 Cadillac Eldorado was the coolest car ever.
I had lunch with him once and told him I thought his professional student swing sequences looked better to me than the other "famous" teachers swings sequences I've seen.
I did.
Why?
Because I am fair.
I'll be fair with him when I watch his finished product with Barkley.
But, "thefuture37" said the "hitch is fixed" and although a few people have told me they enjoyed the show, no one else had made that assertion to me.
Trust me, if Haney gets Charles Barkley to play a round of golf with just a dozen "hitches," it will be on Letterman, Drudge, Today, and YouTube in 5 seconds.
So....I am waiting....
And I'll be fair.
You see, it seems you guys think I am being critical of Haney and he work with Sir Charles.
I have been critical in the past of Hank, specifically I am not a big fan of some of the arm and hand stuff he's done with Tiger.
But I think Tiger's current pivot is fine, and I give Haney credit there.
Once upon a time—like about 1986—I was a big Haney fan.
Of course, I used to think that the 1979 Cadillac Eldorado was the coolest car ever.
I had lunch with him once and told him I thought his professional student swing sequences looked better to me than the other "famous" teachers swings sequences I've seen.
I did.
Why?
Because I am fair.
I'll be fair with him when I watch his finished product with Barkley.
But, "thefuture37" said the "hitch is fixed" and although a few people have told me they enjoyed the show, no one else had made that assertion to me.
Trust me, if Haney gets Charles Barkley to play a round of golf with just a dozen "hitches," it will be on Letterman, Drudge, Today, and YouTube in 5 seconds.
So....I am waiting....
And I'll be fair.
Steve Greffen
New
I believe this is post production so Brian's question of fixing hitch seems to be answered here....now do it in fromtbof a gallery that he might hit! Plus let us see where those balls go not just in a net.
On YouTube there was or is an instructor that posts up a bunch of stuff and one thing was about fixing Charles. He had video of working with him and at one point fixing his hitch. Obviously didn't take and there is a good chance that Haneys won't either not altogether because of the instruction.
So asking someone to swing on a flatter plane is a method?
Personally, I'd first get a "swing" into his swing, ala the Ernest Jones/Manzella swinging drill. Hard to go terribly off-plane doing this. And very anti-pause/hitch as well.
Then if his plane was still too vertical (over his head) I'd work on flattening it out.
"Method" has become a 4-letter word when you happend to disagree with someone's theory/pattern, etc.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Clarity.
Of course it might not be.
But in Hank Haney's case, it is a part of his method.
Nothing wrong with being a "Method" teacher.
I was once, and I was still a pretty good teacher.
It is just mathematically CAN'T produce the best results over any representative sample of golfers.
I found that out, and I am a MILLION times better teacher because of it.
If that makes it a four-letter word, so be it.
Of course it might not be.
But in Hank Haney's case, it is a part of his method.
Nothing wrong with being a "Method" teacher.
I was once, and I was still a pretty good teacher.
It is just mathematically CAN'T produce the best results over any representative sample of golfers.
I found that out, and I am a MILLION times better teacher because of it.
If that makes it a four-letter word, so be it.
But in Charles Barkley's case, any teacher would (eventually) flatten his plane. It's vertical at the top.
I'm just expressing my opinion about the current use (or non-use) of the term Method or Method Instructor. You may have claimed to be one in the past, but I don't see many folks claiming nowadays to teach a Method. What others may say is a Method, the instructor in question would say Fundamentals.
In this case, my point was Haney was moving to orthodox on Barkley's plane. I realize that Haney's rep is that he teaches flatter planes. The fact that someone started saying, "Method", "Method", was my point about the current negative connotations of the term.
I'm just expressing my opinion about the current use (or non-use) of the term Method or Method Instructor. You may have claimed to be one in the past, but I don't see many folks claiming nowadays to teach a Method. What others may say is a Method, the instructor in question would say Fundamentals.
In this case, my point was Haney was moving to orthodox on Barkley's plane. I realize that Haney's rep is that he teaches flatter planes. The fact that someone started saying, "Method", "Method", was my point about the current negative connotations of the term.
What on earth is "orthodox"? There are so many different ways to swing the club it's unbelievable.
Haney is very much a "one method man". Barkley IS a real challenge for him. I'm not sure Barkley is really going to succeed long term with Haney's method.
Barkely could probably perform an upright power swing (a la long driver) by simply getting a little deeper on the backswing and giving himself some space to clear through on the downswing.
In my opinion, his hitch looks like a move conditioned by the fact that his upright swing plane is very close to the target line and with his address and poor pivot, he has to fit it in. One way would be to cast it from the top, and he knows this is not good, so his athleticism kicks in, he resists casting on the way down until by crunching and making a series of half-pivots, he finds the space to sling it through.
He's sorta like Jim Furyk without the final loop.
What is orthodox? It certainly isn't a vertical shaft plane at the top.
Orthodox is a term used by many here: most notably by our host if you have paid attention to the concept of the Matrix.
By the way, I never said that Haney ISN"T a method teacher. Nor did I say that I think Haney is putting first things first.
However, the emotion that the term Method Teacher appears to be evoking, is making my point.
I'm going to request that you don't take what I said in a personal nature. I will do the same in respect to your post and the comment about "paying attention to the Matrix".
I have no "strong emotion" against method teaching. I simply agree with Brian that "method teaching" is not the end all be all of golf instruction. Golf is simply more complex than that.
The only reason I don't like the term "orthodox" is that it is so poorly defined. Additionally, it is used as a cover for not saying a swing isn't "nice looking" "modern" or "like the pros", terms which are all ambiguous in themselves.
Barkley stands the club up going back, and because of a somewhat limited pivot never sets the wrists at the top. He actually is performing what was once considered by some teachers an "orthodox backswing" move with the club at that position (an example is John Redman, instructor to Paul Azinger). Barkley simply never finishes the rest of the swing or allows the club to really set his wrists at the top. The fact is, once you have it vertical you have to do something with it. Either your hands (Furyk), your pivot (Azinger), or both (Nicklaus), have to reslot the club and get it online for delivery.
Take a look at some Nicklaus sequences. You'll see a point where he has a very similar vertical club stand. Brian refered to it as holding the umbrella. Used correctly, you can float load into some powerful positions from that type of backswing.
That is what I was attempting to point out. My challenge was with the ambiguous use of the term "orthodox".
If you have a method that works for you, more power to you. Make it your method. In the end, there's only one method of golf score improvement that works for absolutely everyone...Arnold Palmer called it an eraser.
That said, I'll exit stage left from this argument, because from the tone already it seems to be getting personal. I hope I have clarified my original point.
I'd go a bit further and say that Barkley is so extreme that if he set his wrist more fully, he knock himself in the head with his shaft. That's how vertical he is. And his lack of flexibility keeps the shaft closer to him at the top no matter how upright or flat he is.
Perhaps he subconsiously senses he is about to nail himself in the head with the club as he reaches the top, and that is why he dips his head at least a foot towards the ball.
Anyone would get stuck from that position. And he re-defines the term "stuck" on the downswing.
As far as dropping the Method discussion, fine by me. I was just making a rather light-hearted observation on the current use or connotation of the term.
Perhaps he subconsiously senses he is about to nail himself in the head with the club as he reaches the top, and that is why he dips his head at least a foot towards the ball.
Anyone would get stuck from that position. And he re-defines the term "stuck" on the downswing.
As far as dropping the Method discussion, fine by me. I was just making a rather light-hearted observation on the current use or connotation of the term.
Guitar Hero
New member
I was watching the Haney project and Hank keeps saying get on a flatter plane but does not even change his right elbow position which makes it impossible for Charles to have a flatter plane. How can a top instructor miss this. I watch every swing Charles makes and he has the same high elbow position with a vertical shaft and Hank is still clueless that this elbow change would make the change he is looking for. Mind boggling!
Vertical becuz of pivot as well...
I know Hank is working on Charles' pivot, or at least getting him to turn his shoulders a bit more....one thing to note though....if Haney does fix the pivot/head drop, his plane on the backswing will get a bit flatter. I know as I used to drop my head quite a bit when taking it back,due to trying to stay 'centered' so to speak. As my head dropped towards the ball, my arms coudn't get around me, they could only go up!
As i fixed my pivot, my arm swing felt the same but were not as up...
just a quick observation from someone who did it in the past...
Dobber
I know Hank is working on Charles' pivot, or at least getting him to turn his shoulders a bit more....one thing to note though....if Haney does fix the pivot/head drop, his plane on the backswing will get a bit flatter. I know as I used to drop my head quite a bit when taking it back,due to trying to stay 'centered' so to speak. As my head dropped towards the ball, my arms coudn't get around me, they could only go up!
As i fixed my pivot, my arm swing felt the same but were not as up...
just a quick observation from someone who did it in the past...
Dobber
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