The natural release action of the PingMan machine

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JeffM

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I am trying to understand the natural release action of the PingMan machine.

Please correct any errors in my understanding.

I have been studying the PingMan's release action using my V1 Home swing analyser tool.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/PingMan.jpg

I have made the following presumptions. I presume that the downswing action is due to a central force acting at the central hinge point that causes the central arm to move at a "fixed" and CONSTANT rate of speed during the downswing, and that this speed is user-controllable. I presume that the peripheral hinge joint (where the club is attached to the far end of the central arm) is a totally passive joint, and that there are NO active movements at that peripheral hinge point. I presume that the peripheral hinge point joint has a certain amount of frictional resistance to movement, that is equivalent to the friction inherent in a golfer's wrists if the wrists are very relaxed.

The camera angle is from the right side, and slightly from the front, and I think that it is fair to state that the angle between the clubshaft and the central arm is approximately 90 degrees at the end-backswing position (image 1). It also seems that this 90 degree angle is retained throughout the first part of the downswing (images 1-4). I presume that the reason is due to the fact that the clubhead is gaining momentum during the start of the downswing, but that it cannot move faster than the central arm and hands (peripheral hinge joint) which are pulling the club around in a circle at a CONSTANT rate of speed. Although I advanced the PingMan swing video one frame at a time, I could not capture any additional images between image 4 and image 5 (impact image). It can be seen that a natural/automatic release occurs after the club reaches the delivery position (just after image 4) and I presume that it is due to the fact that the clubhead has gained sufficient momentum to allow the clubhead to move faster than the hands (peripheral hinge joint). Interestingly, the clubshaft has a slight forward lean at impact, presumably due to the fact that the clubhead has not quite caught up to the hands (peripheral hinge point) by impact.

If you agree with my reasoning regarding the PingMan machine's actions, then it seems to have significant implications for understanding the natural release action in the full golf swing. First of all, one doesn't need to actively "hold lag" to maintain a 90 degree angle between the clubshaft and the left arm in the first part of the downswing (until the club reaches the delivery position - where the clubshaft is parallel to the ground and parallel to the ball-target line and along the toe line). It will happen naturally/automatically if one moves the hands at a reasonably fast and CONSTANT rate of speed during the downswing AND if one has very relaxed wrists that do not impede/resist the automatic uncocking of the wrists that will occur after the club reaches the delivery position. Secondly, one will automatically have forward shaft lean at impact if the hands move sufficiently fast THROUGHOUT the ENTIRE downswing. If the hands slow down prior to impact, then there is an increased chance of flipping (having a cupped left wrist at impact and a clubhead that is ahead of the hands at impact). In other words, one must maintain a CONSTANTLY fast forward movement of the hands through impact and into the followthrough. I think that Tiger Woods swings like that (like the PingMan machine), and that there is NO slowing of his hands at impact (or his having near-stationary hands at impact like Mandrin has claimed). What do you think?

Jeff.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Your best post ever, Mr. Mann!

...the PingMan machine's actions..seem to have significant implications for understanding the natural release action in the full golf swing.

First of all, one doesn't need to actively "hold lag" to maintain a 90 degree angle between the clubshaft and the left arm in the first part of the downswing...It will happen naturally/automatically if one moves the hands at a reasonably fast and CONSTANT rate of speed during the downswing AND if one has very relaxed wrists that do not impede/resist the automatic uncocking of the wrists that will occur...

Yes!

Absolutely, you shouldn't try to "hold" any angle.

Secondly, one will automatically have forward shaft lean at impact if the hands move sufficiently fast THROUGHOUT the ENTIRE downswing. If the hands slow down prior to impact, then there is an increased chance of flipping...

Yes Again!

Absolutely, all you need is good ball position, a good pivot and...

DO NOTHING ACTIVELY WITH YOUR HANDS EXCEPT FEEL THE WEIGHT OF THE CLUB!!!
 

dbl

New
A fine post JM, one I appreciate. I have been to the range thinking about the Pingman, and the bit about applying a constant velocity to the left arm/shoulder downswing sure was eye opening. I think I had been applying a force early or late, but not constant. Wowee.
 
I just wanted to mention that I've been on this site exactly 4 months from today. It is the best four months in my golfing life.

This pingman thread is pulling everything together for me.

The Pingman Release

This is probably the last piece of information in my swing for it to work consistently.
 
Question..

OK, the bit about constant hands for a "natural" release seems to fit ....however, how does this explanation work when increasing the swing speed, i.e sometimes pros hit at (say) 80%, what happens during their swing when they hit at 90-100%?...
Do the same rules apply? ...or are they adding more than just circular hand speed>,,,
 

JeffM

New member
Puttmad - good question.

I also wonder what happens to the efficacy of the lag, and nature of the release, if one has a steadily accelerating hand movement downswing action versus a constant velocity hand movement downswing action. I don't know the answer.

Jeff.
 
Another question, several actually,

At the top of PingMan's swing the club is in a classic toe down position. The leading edge more or less lines up on the plane coming down. But at impact the face squares to the ball with - I presume - no assistance from the machine. What is causing the face to square up?

Also, in reading the thread about the right amount of in-to-out path in combination with open clubface for straightaway flight, I wonder if this thing is setup the same way? i.e. downward attack angle, inside-out approach path, slightly open clubface.

I believe its probably setup with a plane that's parallel to the target line. I wonder how they ensure the clubface is square at separation?
 
In other words, one must maintain a CONSTANTLY fast forward movement of the hands through impact and into the followthrough. I think that Tiger Woods swings like that (like the PingMan machine), and that there is NO slowing of his hands at impact (or his having near-stationary hands at impact like Mandrin has claimed). What do you think?

Jeff.

1) Mandrin, what's your view here regarding near-stationary hands at impact?

2) That's why I think it's important for the Swinger to learn how to wallop the ball with the pivot, since this allows the hands to travel at maximum speed around impact. The Swinger has to counteract the lengthening of the Primary Lever Assembly which slows the whole Pivot down (via conservation of angular momentum), including the hands. It's also interesting to note that it is this lengthening of the Primary Lever Assembly that gives the Clubhead its 'Velocity Power' aka Accumulator #2.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Mandrin

As per Leo's (TONGzilla) question...

Aaron Zick says that COAM does not exist in the swing.

I think Leo's question just help me figure how HOW Dr. Zick is right, if he is right.

Is he right? :D
 
As per Leo's (TONGzilla) question...

Aaron Zick says that COAM does not exist in the swing.

I think Leo's question just help me figure how HOW Dr. Zick is right, if he is right.

Is he right? :D

Brian, can you explain to me using easy to understand english why COAM doesn't exist? Thanks.
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
1) Mandrin, what's your view here regarding near-stationary hands at impact?

2) That's why I think it's important for the Swinger to learn how to wallop the ball with the pivot, since this allows the hands to travel at maximum speed around impact. The Swinger has to counteract the lengthening of the Primary Lever Assembly which slows the whole Pivot down (via conservation of angular momentum), including the hands. It's also interesting to note that it is this lengthening of the Primary Lever Assembly that gives the Clubhead its 'Velocity Power' aka Accumulator #2.

Leo,

How do you lengthen the primary lever assembly? Is this extensor action on the downswing?
 
As per Leo's (TONGzilla) question...

Aaron Zick says that COAM does not exist in the swing.

I think Leo's question just help me figure how HOW Dr. Zick is right, if he is right.

Is he right? :D
Brian,

I am not really in a position to say that Aaron Zick is wrong since I expect him to have read my various posts on this subject. :D

Short answer - COAM, as understood in science, does not apply in a golf swing.

Often rather loosely reference is made to COAM and frequently one invokes a spinning skater to reinforce the value of the argument. Yet there is a very fundamental error in this type of thinking.

The spinning skater has a certain amount of angular momentum and there being very little friction between skater and ice, he can be considered to have constant angular momentum, (closed system). Bringing his hands closer to the body the increases his rotational speed and vice versa.

The golfer at the top of his swing has no angular momentum and has as yet really nothing preserve. He is continuously ‘injecting’ angular momentum into the downswing. During release some of the angular momentum of the arms/body flows out to the club head whilst the golfer continues to generate angular momentum during the release, (open system).

Whilst there is some apparent resemblance between a spinning skater, getting his hands away from his body, and the a clubhead, moving away from the golfer’s axis of rotation, for the reasons mentioned above, it is not correct to invoke COAM for the golfer.

In a nutshell, to preserve something you have to have something to be preserved. A golfer however starts from zero, has nothing to start with, but generates the angular momentum primarily before, but continues to do so during the club release action.
 
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