The Old Masters ONE TWO

[Lindsey Newman]

I always wondered what was driving all of this back and forth. I Never looked at stuff on the other boards and I've tried to focus on my work with Brian and Kevin. After reading the stuff Kevin is referring to I gotta admit I'm a bit surprised.

Thing is, I am not gonna side with folks that use one model of a complete series and act as though they created a new swing theory. It's sad to me that it appears that M.O.R.A.D folks are saddling up with and defending S&T when it is M.O.R.A.D that has been done a great disservice by S&T, in my opinion. If it was the "way" or if there is a "way" you bet your ass everyone would be doing it, FACT, and that is not what we see on tour.

 

[gmbtempe]

"

How much does your head need to move off the ball for it not to be a tripod pivot, is there some official BM measurement? I am not talking about head swivel either, actual movement? I just watched Adam Scott and Jason Day, they might move about an inch or so.

I am with you on the cut off finish, funny thing is never heard that from any instructor I have worked with.

So you think your position looks good in two majors, so what? And in the 70's I guess square to square looked good.

Good thing Tiger did not win with his knew hands deep, rotated shoulder turn, centered pivot.....but I bet somehow he would have fit "your" pattern as well.

Read more: http://richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2081&page=2#ixzz1JS7lDtl5"





This a little more than saying his post was cryptic. I dont see you over there defending him when your boys take part in their favorite pastime and take a shit on Brian. Sure his post had an edgy-ness to it but why does everyone care? If he's such a nobody like that Barzeski says, why do they care what he thinks about S&T not taking over the world, which was the main point?

I dont thin I was taking to many liberties there, he said no one with a centered pivot contended at the masters, it was my way of disagreeing, maybe to strong and I could have been more direct. Do a search over a WRX for Brian Manzella opinions and I think you will see I am constantly there chiming in about his knowledge of the golf swing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What in the hell has any of this have to do with my thesis?????

Geez....

 

[odpeus]

I am hoping all of this will become clearer when Project 1.68 comes out. I have the money saved up already. I just hope I can keep from buying a new club with it until the thing comes out.

Agree, what is the end date for Project 1.68? Can't wait and I am more than glad to pay for information based on serious research.

 

[jerry1967]

Why do people feel like I am singling out S&T?

The are plenty of methodologies out there who believe in a backswing that does not displace the left shoulder socket and left hip socket, and left hand AWAY from the ball.

To do this, you can't hover to much, and you have to have your arms more up than the flat trend in golf swing methodology land.

I saw NO super flat swings, and NO super restricted pivot swings ANYWHERE near the leader board.

I think that this "arms super-glued to the upper torso, don't break an egg under the right foot on the backswing, cut off finish GOLF PATTERN" was sold as a revolution on a couple of fronts. Not just S&T.

I was right all along.

It is just a pattern (or two) that might work for someone.

It is NOT the future of golf.

The future of golf is 300 yard carries, with an athletic motion.

Correct me if I am wrong but this sounds like the new old swing of the 80's.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think the swings I have seen in the last two majors near the lead at the end had some 70's in them, and other eras as well, but I think the best ones look a bit different.

Just so you know Jerry, I have taught a lot this week, and I have NOT done any of the following.....

Moved someone's weight more right—or left.

Taked about generating more speed through the pivot.

 

[rmartingolf]

If you ask me (which no one has or should), it's about skill. When you toss a ball to a baby it's from an extremely short distance. When you first start shooting hoops you work from set shots to jump shots to fadeaway jumpers. I feel similar about the golf swing. Some folks need to be almost stationary to find the ball at low point. More skilled folks can use more pivot, lateral motion to create more speed while still finding accuracy with their strike. Athletes with superior skill and hand eye coordination will always have more freedom to interpret how to swing.

Damn this is a good post!
There is so much arguing and BS about methods and what's right or wrong I think we are forgetting that it's still a stick and a ball and the most skilled person on a given day is the man on top.

What and epic take ! You are factor my friend.

 

[birdie_man]

I know, it was unfair and regret saying it, there are not many that disagree with Brian would be a better statement. Whats funny is when he was all TGM lots agreed, now he is not as TGM (and opening against a lot of it) and still many agree. You see where I am going? I have not seen this evidence yet to definitely say "yea, that is right, and that is wrong.

I find myself sick of these arguments. I now sometimes dread opening certain threads. (not really this one though)

(created by The Pied Piper...or Spaghetti Man in some circles)

C'mon man. So are we all sheep, or what? Like-minded does not necessarily mean "sheep".

TGM for a long time seemed like a good source of information and seemed scientific. It helped me understand and sort out many things. But we now know that it is not accurate information. I went along with it because much of it made sense, and yes- also because there were people doing a good job of presenting it and teaching it.

As for Brian...ya he was an authority on TGM...but also always knew how to fix a slice, fix a hook, fix a flip, fix a shank (maybe the biggest faults in golf) and how to teach it and how to be entertaining. And he always cared about always doing better. I don't see that kind of care or development going on enough anywhere, nevermind in golf- where people seem to prefer to stake their ground and stay stagnant, recycle tired information, etc.

Moreso than what you suggest though, I think what happened is that this forum evolved WITH Brian and his peers. I have improved along with them. To be fair, Brian and many others in here have sorted out a LOT of stuff that others hadn't, or just hadn't been paying attention to. There are people of all kinds in here, and to me, pretty clearly a lot of free thinkers.

...

It turns out there were about two groups following TGM:

1. The "methodist TGMers." (which is essentially an oxyMORON, as Homer's book was supposed to "explain all methods") Whether or not they had a stake in profits.

2. People who have actually just been looking for real answers that no one else had for them.

...

I do (again) think the "centered" (specifically the downright REVERSE pivots) thing is way overblown. I do not understand the fascination with it. There is Monty, Fred, Jack for a while (but he had his head BACK well enough), and whoever else (including this more recent group) that has SOME amount of success with someTHING like that. But seriously...how far can we go? How far does anyone really see this thing going?

This is all essentially about hype control if you ask me. (or at least it should be) And of course science and just generally doing a good job. I dunno what the hell you are into anything for if you ain't concerned at doing it well. Arguments on mechanics have been around since ever...and like I said- this one is probably gonna continue. (if...) Dumb...

...

I do side with Brian. And I side with anyone else who regularly thinks with as much sense. This cyclical argument really is unnecessary. Though if one cares at all about reality, science, playing better, and helping others play better it is tough to ignore. I do dislike seeing things and tried (attempting to conform to an idea) that don't fit. Like Brian has said "You mighta just kept someone from making it..." I guess for now, shit happens.

Me, I would rather just keep learning than trying to "find something to sell". If some people want to do that, they will keep having to put up with criticism. It is just part of reality man. Some I am sure believe the nonsense they themselves push. I of course do not buy that all do though. I am not sure if either is worse, btw...

One look at the HOF and *poof*...much to do about pivots should be clearer. Or maybe the opposite of "poof". (suggesting smoke- obstructing vision)

*Foop!*

Read more: Message Board - Manzella Opinions On Stack and Tilt

That thread speaks of "trends". Speaking of trends (besides reverse pivots or close to them)...how about an All Time trend?

Hall Of Fame. HOF...

Bob Bush has stated the main center is under the left chest cavity for what its worth

Biomechanist??

 

[birdie_man]

There may have been a bit of confusion.

Just want to make it clear that I did not say anything like "Stack and Tilt is a reverse pivot". And I said, and mean, "reverse pivot OR CLOSE TO IT".

Of course though, y'all are not dumb, and neither am I. It is fairly well known that S&T is one of the methods I could be talking about. I really don't care. I do think it is kind of bogus. I am just a dude sitting on my computer right now.

Anyhoo, someone pointed out that maybe I am unlearned as to what is currently taught under that method- or any other relevant one for that matter.

If I am off base, please just point it out. Not sure where Brian wants this to go, but I would be happy to talk about any progress these methods have made, if you want to go there. Maybe the Golf Digest article is embedded in my mind. It was a pretty bad article, to me. Then again, might be good for everyone to get past that, and to get on the same page, esp if progress has been made.

Paul

EDIT: Maybe a PM would be best, I just thought? Don't know.

 

[LDGolf]

Just reading through this thread sparked a few thoughts. (For me that is an achievement in it'self)

I don't put a huge amount of stock in golf swing mechanics for the level of golf I play at. (5-8 H/Cap)

I say this because I can have an awful day with the driver and irons, but get up and down and make a few putts and still score.

I put a huge amount of stock in confidence, you need to be able to stand over a shot and know you are going to make it.

I started to lose confidence in my swing, practice didn't help so I turned to the internet for solutions. I found a myriad of information on rotary, stack & tilt, TGM, one plane, two plane etc. etc. etc. This confused me so much I had taken titbits from different sources and totally ruined my confidence.

I found this site, and Brians method for getting the message across was the first thing that appealed to me. The second thing that appealed was the consistancy in the type of information presented.

This has lead to me coming across the soft draw pattern, which incidentally was my swing prior to turning to the internet and screwing around with it.

For me this was absolutely wonderful, for me it wasn't the technique that was taught, it was the fact that Brian with all his knowledge of the golf swing gave me permission to return to a swing which I though was bad. This in turn has led to an increase in confidence, which has led to better scoring. 71, 74, 71 over the last three rounds all of which I did not putt or chip particularly well (cored greens), I just hit the ball with more confidence.

I guess what I am trying to say, what I have learned is, it's not which methodology you subscribe to, when it comes to a bit of pressure it's about what you know you can do.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Just reading through this thread sparked a few thoughts. (For me that is an achievement in it'self)

I don't put a huge amount of stock in golf swing mechanics for the level of golf I play at. (5-8 H/Cap)

I say this because I can have an awful day with the driver and irons, but get up and down and make a few putts and still score.

I put a huge amount of stock in confidence, you need to be able to stand over a shot and know you are going to make it.

I started to lose confidence in my swing, practice didn't help so I turned to the internet for solutions. I found a myriad of information on rotary, stack & tilt, TGM, one plane, two plane etc. etc. etc. This confused me so much I had taken titbits from different sources and totally ruined my confidence.

I found this site, and Brians method for getting the message across was the first thing that appealed to me. The second thing that appealed was the consistancy in the type of information presented.

This has lead to me coming across the soft draw pattern, which incidentally was my swing prior to turning to the internet and screwing around with it.

For me this was absolutely wonderful, for me it wasn't the technique that was taught, it was the fact that Brian with all his knowledge of the golf swing gave me permission to return to a swing which I though was bad. This in turn has led to an increase in confidence, which has led to better scoring. 71, 74, 71 over the last three rounds all of which I did not putt or chip particularly well (cored greens), I just hit the ball with more confidence.

I guess what I am trying to say, what I have learned is, it's not which methodology you subscribe to, when it comes to a bit of pressure it's about what you know you can do.

Just my 2 cents.

Great post!
Thanks for sharing LDGolf