The "Real" Turned Shoulder Plane

[birdie_man]

This is from Power Golf . . . Not the reprint with the drawings . . . Mr. K used it in his studies. Mine is 1948 copyright.

As much as you are on the forums studying you should own a copy of this book. You can get it off of Amazon cheap. It's great!

I know I know I should man....I don't even have 5 Lessons either....

 

[The Return of NAT]

B...I don't get your point...I've always since day one drawn the turned shoulder plane after the point in the backstroke where it reaches its furthest point as you have wonderfully illustrated..if you draw it prior you are guesstimating it's location...due to the fact both a flat shoulder turn and a rotated shoulder turn can loacte this plane angle...but it's location changes slightly due to the plane of the shoulder turn......Who draws it at address?...I thought that would be the Squared Shoulder Plane at the Address....Turned Shoulder Plane angle drawn after the backstroke....Anyway..great pics!!

 

[birdie_man]

Ya I dunno what prompted him to put this up...

Of course, he's not gonna name names is he....

 

[Millrat]

Shortest distance between two points

Maybe I'm missing the point here but don't we need to see how the club travelled from A (address) to B (top)? I'm referring to the Snead photos.

CW

 

[DOCW3]

Why

Why should a player care about the TSP?

DRW

 

[Brian Manzella]

Good Question....nat

B...I don't get your point...I've always since day one drawn the turned shoulder plane after the point in the backstroke where it reaches its furthest point as you have wonderfully illustrated..if you draw it prior you are guesstimating it's location...due to the fact both a flat shoulder turn and a rotated shoulder turn can loacte this plane angle...but it's location changes slightly due to the plane of the shoulder turn......Who draws it at address?...I thought that would be the Squared Shoulder Plane at the Address....Turned Shoulder Plane angle drawn after the backstroke....Anyway..great pics!!

There are people who do draw it before.

And those people are wrong.

No biggie.

 

[Brian Manzella]

'cuz

Why should a player care about the TSP?

DRW

Because the right shoulder can add POWER and LOCATION to the POWER PACKAGE.

So, you need to "locate" it, so to speak.

 

[nevermind]

Is it possible to have the clubshaft and trail shoulder BOTH work down the TSP in the downstroke?

I dont see how you can. But the TSP is said to be ideal, and it's written that you need to get the shoulder moving toward the ball during the downstroke (TSP). How can you do both without a straight trail arm?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Is it possible to have the clubshaft and trail shoulder BOTH work down the TSP in the downstroke?

I dont see how you can. But the TSP is said to be ideal, and it's written that you need to get the shoulder moving toward the ball during the downstroke (TSP). How can you do both without a straight trail arm?

The butt of the club travels down the TSP in the downstroke with the shaft flattening just a touch so it is behind the line. This is the down part of the downswing and at about waist height the hands veer left and under the TSP and the players tend move to the elbow plane. This is especially true with the irons. In my experience of looking at pro swings with a wood the butt of the club is just a fraction under the TSP.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Just want to make sure I understand this

Brian,

If I understand it correctly, what you're saying is that the TSP plane for good players would result in a line drawn at address that would be slightly lower than may have traditionally been thought in the past, passing right through the middle of the right shoulder rather than the top of it. The best players also line the butt of the club up with an extension of that line at the top of the backswing.

Elbow plane.

It seems from the lines drawn on the Hogan sequence that the elbow plane runs just below the right elbow, which in Hogan's case is virtually along the shaft, I presume this is incidental, as obviously a line drawn just under Mac O'Grady's right elbow wouldn't run along the shaft.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Is it possible to have the clubshaft and trail shoulder BOTH work down the TSP in the downstroke?

I dont see how you can. But the TSP is said to be ideal, and it's written that you need to get the shoulder moving toward the ball during the downstroke (TSP). How can you do both without a straight trail arm?

Yes, both the clubshaft and the right shoulder can work down the TSP. Look at Phil M or David Toms.

 

[hg]

Elbow Plane

Brian,

If I understand it correctly, what you're saying is that the TSP plane for good players would result in a line drawn at address that would be slightly lower than may have traditionally been thought in the past, passing right through the middle of the right shoulder rather than the top of it. The best players also line the butt of the club up with an extension of that line at the top of the backswing.

Elbow plane.

It seems from the lines drawn on the Hogan sequence that the elbow plane runs just below the right elbow, which in Hogan's case is virtually along the shaft, I presume this is incidental, as obviously a line drawn just under Mac O'Grady's right elbow wouldn't run along the shaft.

So the elbow plane is not drawn from the setup position thru the elbow...but somewhere in the backswing?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

So the elbow plane is not drawn from the setup position thru the elbow...but somewhere in the backswing?

The elbow plane is represented by the plane the elbow takes throughout the stroke. Most players who use the elbow plane setup on the elbow plane at address. Therefore most of the time that line will run through the shaft and bottom of the elbow. However sometimes players will setup with the shaft higher/lower than the elbow plane and thus the line through the shaft is not valid.

 

[nevermind]

Yes, both the clubshaft and the right shoulder can work down the TSP. Look at Phil M or David Toms.

any visuals? can you do it all the way to impact(without a straigh trail arm)? beyond?

Also, why has the plane been drawn through the ball? The defined plane angles are for the clubshaft, not the sweetspot, arent they? Shouldn't the plane intersect the ground slightly inside the ball? Are you "on" the TSP, or any plane angle, if your clubshaft is laying on the plane, or the sweetspot?

 

[DOCW3]

Because the right shoulder can add POWER and LOCATION to the POWER PACKAGE.

So, you need to "locate" it, so to speak.

So, the player who does not "locate" the TSP or who does but does not use it sacrifices power?

Also, FWIW, in discussing Shoulder Turn HK included the following statements:
"...the Shoulder.... transmits the pivot motion to the Arms."
"..the Arms will always seek to move to-and on-the Plane of the Shoulder Turn...."

DRW

 

[yippedagain]

In the two pics of Mac O'Grady on page one, don't you think that would be classified as Squared Shoulder Plane in TGM.

The line is drawn through his Right Shoulder in the Address position.

A shift from the Hands Plane up through the Elbow Plane, then locating a Turned but also Squared Shoulder location ?.

 

[DOCW3]

Diane demos it too

My personal opinion.

I have checked with noted TGM experts besides myself.

They agree.

Here ya go:

The real TSP is the TSP located with a Rotated Shoulder Turn?

DRW

 

[birdie_man]

Any can.

A Flat or Standard will just take the shoulder under in the backswing and THEN up to the TSP. (by the time you reach the top)

 

[Brian Manzella]

The POINT....

There is a group of teachers who "teach from the book," who have started drawing the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE at a point WELL BELOW the correct point.

I have showed the point CORRECTLY DRAWN on Mac O'Grady and Sam Snead.

It is obvious from these pics, that ANY point on the body at address, IS NOT A RELIABLE WAY to determine the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE.

It is a dangerous precident—in my opinion—on many levels.

#1. It is producing golfers with swings SO FLAT, that these golfers are forced below plane, too far "out to right field" both, or have to come over the top of this FLAT BACKSWING to "locate" the turned shoulder plane to get the power and guidance it provides.

#2. Because it is wrong. The Golfing Machine is a great piece of work, and it is being misrepresented on many levels, this being one.

 

[tradekid]

B-Man I Agree...

There is a group of teachers who "teach from the book," who have started drawing the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE at a point WELL BELOW the correct point.

I have showed the point CORRECTLY DRAWN on Mac O'Grady and Sam Snead.

It is obvious from these pics, that ANY point on the body at address, IS NOT A RELIABLE WAY to determine the TURNED SHOULDER PLANE.

It is a dangerous precident—in my opinion—on many levels.

#1. It is producing golfers with swings SO FLAT, that these golfers are forced below plane, too far "out to right field" both, or have to come over the top of this FLAT BACKSWING to "locate" the turned shoulder plane to get the power and guidance it provides.

#2. Because it is wrong. The Golfing Machine is a great piece of work, and it is being misrepresented on many levels, this being one.

I could be wrong but I would think you can't draw a turned shoulder plane line UNTIL THE SHOULDER IS TURNED.!