The Release and Divot

[birly-shirly]

How is "glancing blow" measured on Trackman??? It isn't. It's all about impact (speed, centerness of hit, spin rate, dynamic loft, launch angle, etc). So how exactly does one have a shallow angle of attack (forget any divots comments) and deloft the clubface? I don't see where Brian explained that in the release video. It might be the effect of the new release, but I don't see an explanation of how the new release causes such impact condition. I deloft the clubface by hitting down with a steep angle of attack. (I don't have a "glancing" blow and can nuke my irons by hitting down on them severely. Why? Because I massively deloft the clubface).

I want to keep the same dynamic loft with a steep swing as with a shallow swing but I cannot figure out how that's possible and still don't after watching the release video. I know some people never get things. I want to learn. BMan is my favorite instructor and I'm not trying to disparage the video. I just don't see how the new release causes a shallow attack angle WHILE massively delofting the clubface.

Aren't there 2 TM measures of "glancingness of blow"?

1 would be dynamic loft plus the angle of attack. AKA spin loft.

2 would be smash factor.

In your case, you deloft a 7 iron and hit it further because you hit it lower. Someone else might hit a 6 iron, launch the ball at the same angle as you, and carry the ball the same distance as you - but with less clubhead momentum. It's a less glancing blow with less spin. Please don't ask me to quantify the differences, as I have no clue at what point the differences become significant and noticeable. But I think it's a mistake to confuse mashing the clubhead into the ground with better "compression" - even if you're hitting the ball further.

 

[cwdlaw223]

One has to interpret the numbers that are actually read by Trackman to come up with "compression" or "glancingness." Such terms are inherently subjective and I don't think are relevant that much to my question/comments. I deliver less dynamic loft when hitting down on the ball time and time again (and on average, hit the ball 10 yards + further). I've done it numberous times on Trackman when fooling around with different types of shots and attack angles with various irons.

Do you deliver the same dynamic loft with your irons when you hit down as opposed to picking the ball or using the new release?

I would love to not have to hit down so much to keep the same dynamic loft. Just don't know that pulling up near or at impact is going to give me the same dynamic loft as when I hit down on the ball hard.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

cwd...this isn't gospel BUT a lot of times people like you who seem to hit it further when taking a more healthy divot are hitting it longer for 2 main reasons:

1) A lot of people can manufacture more lean angle the more down the AOA (again not ALL but people "find a way" easier this way). This can contribute to you delivering less loft on the ball
2) Again, if you are a big down AOA guy that is pushing your path further out to the right regardless of lean angle, do get the ball to come back to target the clubface needs to be closed "enough" to draw it back which again, delofts the club.

I have had many big drawers with their irons who i straighten out perse and they lose distance simply because they are now delivering more loft on the ball and not delofting it AS MUCH. 10-15 yards isn't a lot, can't you just take one more club and/or bend your irons stronger? Just a thought.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Jim -

Thank you. I thought I was going crazy. I play a hard draw and do have my clubface closed to my path (which delivers less dynamic loft). I agree that if I shallow out my attack angle that I could be more consistent, but not hit it as far. I'm not willing to give up a whole club when I've very satisfied with my swing and the results right now by playing a hard draw. My brain is wired for a hard draw and I can quiet my brain under pressure with a hard draw. I like following BMan, what can I say??? When he talks, I listen.

 

[Frans@France]

Aren't there 2 TM measures of "glancingness of blow"?

1 would be dynamic loft plus the angle of attack. AKA spin loft.

2 would be smash factor.

In your case, you deloft a 7 iron and hit it further because you hit it lower. Someone else might hit a 6 iron, launch the ball at the same angle as you, and carry the ball the same distance as you - but with less clubhead momentum. It's a less glancing blow with less spin. Please don't ask me to quantify the differences, as I have no clue at what point the differences become significant and noticeable. But I think it's a mistake to confuse mashing the clubhead into the ground with better "compression" - even if you're hitting the ball further.

Or confuse delofting with Angle of attack

With thanks to James Leitz, part of a paper from the Trackman user conference. Yes the guy on the right is AoA down and the Guy left is Up

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim -

Thank you. I thought I was going crazy. I play a hard draw and do have my clubface closed to my path (which delivers less dynamic loft). I agree that if I shallow out my attack angle that I could be more consistent, but not hit it as far. I'm not willing to give up a whole club when I've very satisfied with my swing and the results right now by playing a hard draw. My brain is wired for a hard draw and I can quiet my brain under pressure with a hard draw. I like following BMan, what can I say??? When he talks, I listen.

Then play the draw, i don't have an issue with that.

 

[birly-shirly]

One has to interpret the numbers that are actually read by Trackman to come up with "compression" or "glancingness." Such terms are inherently subjective and I don't think are relevant that much to my question/comments. I deliver less dynamic loft when hitting down on the ball time and time again (and on average, hit the ball 10 yards + further). I've done it numberous times on Trackman when fooling around with different types of shots and attack angles with various irons.

Do you deliver the same dynamic loft with your irons when you hit down as opposed to picking the ball or using the new release?

I would love to not have to hit down so much to keep the same dynamic loft. Just don't know that pulling up near or at impact is going to give me the same dynamic loft as when I hit down on the ball hard.

Well - you asked how to measure "a glancing blow" - so if you don't think an explanation is relevant, what can I say?

Do I deliver the same dynamic loft when hitting down? No, I do the same as you - I hit it lower and a bit further. Personally, I'm not fussed about the distance - but I do like hitting it solid, which I've found easier to do working on a more downward AoA.

If you like hitting a hot 7 iron 160 yards instead of 150 with a higher ballflight, then who am I to argue? The difficulty comes if your longer irons become unplayable - but then, what else are hybrids or lofted woods for?

Myself, I don't see the great virtue of hitting a 7 iron 10 yards further if all you're doing is delofting the club. All other things being equal, you're not going to be any more accurate than the guy who hits one club more.

As for Brian's video - well my interpretation of what he's saying there, and on the release thread, is that the forward lean will come from the lag created in transition and the shallow angle of attack comes from the handpath. If you need more shaft lean, then my guess is that you need to create more lag in transition or you need more force across the shaft later in the downswing. Did you see the photos of Power Golf and 5 Lessons Hogan? I think the point being made was that the extra force across the shaft in the PG swings didn't result in extra clubhead speed. I don't think anyone was saying that it wasn't an effective way to play the ball down, if that was your goal.

 

[birly-shirly]

Or confuse delofting with Angle of attack

Who's confused? Apart from the guy in the photo on the right?

Cwdlaw IS mashing his club into the ground AND he's delofting the club. Regardless of those James Leitz photos, that's what Tuxen has found that MOST people do, isn't it?

You don't think that if the guy in the photo on the left was to hit down on the ball more, it would make his shaft look more like the guy's on the right, do you?

 

[grubbs]

and can't you use the 1st law as at least a partial explanation?

Yes, I suppose, and I'll admit that when I posted the reply you quoted, I didn't realize that you had already quoted the first law.

The way I look at it is this:

Invoking the 1st law, the ball says to the clubhead "If you want to change my speed or direction, you gotta apply some force, dude."

and when the clubhead does just that, the ball invokes the 3rd law and says "Right back atcha, baby!"

 

[Kevin Shields]

Cwd, have you read the release thread? There are countless references to how to deloft your irons without hitting down so much

 

[spktho]

Yes, I suppose, and I'll admit that when I posted the reply you quoted, I didn't realize that you had already quoted the first law.

The way I look at it is this:

Invoking the 1st law, the ball says to the clubhead "If you want to change my speed or direction, you gotta apply some force, dude."

and when the clubhead does just that, the ball invokes the 3rd law and says "Right back atcha, baby!"

As they used to say were I grew up, "Yaaa, buddy"

 

[cwdlaw223]

Cwd, have you read the release thread? There are countless references to how to deloft your irons without hitting down so much

That thread is way too much for me. It's over 100+ pages. I'll take a lesson.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Well - you asked how to measure "a glancing blow" - so if you don't think an explanation is relevant, what can I say?

Do I deliver the same dynamic loft when hitting down? No, I do the same as you - I hit it lower and a bit further. Personally, I'm not fussed about the distance - but I do like hitting it solid, which I've found easier to do working on a more downward AoA.

If you like hitting a hot 7 iron 160 yards instead of 150 with a higher ballflight, then who am I to argue? The difficulty comes if your longer irons become unplayable - but then, what else are hybrids or lofted woods for?

Myself, I don't see the great virtue of hitting a 7 iron 10 yards further if all you're doing is delofting the club. All other things being equal, you're not going to be any more accurate than the guy who hits one club more.

As for Brian's video - well my interpretation of what he's saying there, and on the release thread, is that the forward lean will come from the lag created in transition and the shallow angle of attack comes from the handpath. If you need more shaft lean, then my guess is that you need to create more lag in transition or you need more force across the shaft later in the downswing. Did you see the photos of Power Golf and 5 Lessons Hogan? I think the point being made was that the extra force across the shaft in the PG swings didn't result in extra clubhead speed. I don't think anyone was saying that it wasn't an effective way to play the ball down, if that was your goal.

Is the lag created by the load in the shaft? Wouldn't a weaker shaft help in loading the shaft? Your comment about the later lag was very, very helpful in better understanding the video. I'm going to watch it again.

How many pros mash their irons? I would suspect more than 50%-60% as a blind guess. Beaver pelts galore on tour!!!

 

[Kevin Shields]

That thread is way too much for me. It's over 100+ pages. I'll take a lesson.

Well, excuuuuuuuuuuse me

 

[spktho]

Could another way to get more shaft lean at impact be to apply the hand torque slightly later in the transition/downswing or it could feel like out-tossing less?

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

As for Brian's video - well my interpretation of what he's saying there, and on the release thread, is that the forward lean will come from the lag created in transition and the shallow angle of attack comes from the handpath.

+1