The Release of the Left Arm Across the Chest

[Brian Manzella]

This sequence of Jack Nicklaus—the Greatest Golfer of All-Time—was taken from the book THE FULL SWING.

They did a really bad job in the book, all the pictures where rotated different, and the lines weren't any good either.

After 2 hours of work, I think you can see the left arm across the chest at the top, swinging off the chest to and through impact, finally having he right arm swinging across.

Do I think EVERYONE should swing like this?

Heck no.

But a lot of folks should, and a move like this is poo-pooed almost everywhere on the 'net.

Not here.

 

[art]

This sequence of Jack Nicklaus—the Greatest Golfer of All-Time—was taken from the book THE FULL SWING.

They did a really bad job in the book, all the pictures where rotated different, and the lines weren't any good either.

After 2 hours of work, I think you can see the left arm across the chest at the top, swinging off the chest to and through impact, finally having he right arm swinging across.

Do I think EVERYONE should swing like this?

Heck no.

But a lot of folks should, and a move like this is poo-pooed almost everywhere on the 'net.

Not here.

Brian,

Those are very revealing pictures, and the increasing angle BETWEEN the shoulder line and the left arm is clear evidence of the torso being the 'launch platform' for the angular acceleration of the left arm.

For those interested in the somewhat controversial 'kinematic sequence graphs' of the angular velocities of the body elements ie, pelvis, torso, shoulder etc., what you have pictorially shown is the difference in angular velocities between the shoulder graph and the left arm graph, aka. 'inside the kinematic sequence'. THANKS, for the golf scientific/technical support folks, this area is also a direct indication of the torque involved in accelerating the left arm across the chest, and of course, the more, the better, since this increased left arm velocity results in increased club head speed.

 

[rogue]

Brian:

Excellent presentation.

Look at his right wrist in the fourth picture. Interesting.

Also, in reference to the third picture, notice that the blue line is nearly perpendicular to the orange line, could this be an illustration from the top of going normal?

Thanks
Ed

I’m glad I attended the Anti Summit II. The issues of the “release of the left arm across the chest” were excellent covered, especially by Dr. Rob Neal.

 

[mgranato]

Was jack less open with the hips and shoulders at impact than what is common in the game today? Seems like a lot of guys today are very (by comparison) open at impact.

 

[Todd Dugan]

I don't know that its "poo-pooed". Lots of guys talk about swinging the arms and club back out "in front" of you, whatever that means. Furyk and Trevino come to mind as players who had the left arm still well back across the chest at impact, yet these guys never had a problem with getting "stuck" with a rightward swing direction........proving that swinging the left arm back across the chest is not a requirement to swing the hands on the intended plane direction. But I suppose that SOME swing back of the left, aided of course by the push of the right, is optimal for clubhead velocity.

 

[Mike Thomas (sunmart)]

What a great powerful shoulder turn back and thru.

 

[SteveT]

This sequence of Jack Nicklaus—the Greatest Golfer of All-Time—was taken from the book THE FULL SWING.

...... I think you can see the left arm across the chest at the top, swinging off the chest to and through impact, finally having he right arm swinging across.

Brian... what do you mean "swinging off the chest"? Are you suggesting that his left armpit opens up as his left arm rotates across his chest? If so then wouldn't you need a DTL left side view of Jack's swing to confirm that... and the sweater doesn't help either?

If you mean just swinging off the chest radially, you can't really tell if his left upper arm is still pinned to his left pec and just sliding across the chest, from the top view.

Your left upper arm can just slide across the left pec, from a horizontal position to a vertical down position and still stay on the pec muscle. In fact, that is what seems to be happening because the left arm top view length decreases as it goes from horizontal to vertical down.

Kinematically and kinetically, the left arm radius of gyration is the significant factor in relation to the spinal rotative axis and shoulder span torque radius.... and that is not apparent from the top view photos.

Perhaps you can clarify. Thanks.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geez...

The point to the pictures (remember folks Damon Lucas has a Mat-t system, we have the 3D from the AMM system of many, many PGA tour players) is simply this:

If you listen to what the some folks (often who can't explain themselves a lick) say about the swing is that the left arm would get DRAGGED ALL THE WAY THROUGH with the right wrist bent all the way through, and anything else is junk.

No, it's 20 majors.

 

[Robbohank]

I used to feel like my shoulders where positioned like image 4 at impact and fought the "wipe". I now feel like the shoulders are at image 2 at impact with MUCH better results. Still working it left thru impact but better compression.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is a point TO THE POINT:

Get a decent player (can break 80) to pose the "modern swing" from above.

Will it look ANYTHING like JWN?

Hell no.


Point made.

 

[SteveT]

Jeez is right .. I think we're having a semantics/definition problems here.

Of course the left lead arm is pulled around the should span axis in a horizontal component, and then the left arm rotates vertically down around the left shoulder joint. Even the left scapula can get involve sliding back and forth together with the rotations.

The net result is the left arm movement will be a combination of the two or three movements. If one of the movements is either delayed or advanced, you'll get strange results such as excessive lagging or early release.

Also, by the time the left arm is nearing/at impact it's decelerated substantially relative to the shoulders when the direction of shoulder torque starts pulling the left arm upwards. A whole new set of 'forces' acts on the left arm in final release and impact. Some even say centripetal and centrifugal forces are at play..!!!

 

[jimmyt]

Great post Brian..........

As usual to much nit picking.....takes a good thread and throws it right into ignore mode

 

[GeoffDickson]

Here's my take on the take home messages:

1. The angle between left arm and shoulders at impact is pretty big (i.e. out towards 90 degrees)
2. The left arm does not need to be stuck to the chest to hit the ball well.

 

[drewyallop]

Here's my take on the take home messages:

1. The angle between left arm and shoulders at impact is pretty big (i.e. out towards 90 degrees)
2. The left arm does not need to be stuck to the chest to hit the ball well.

Nice and simple.

I agree Neal's and MacKenzie's discussion of the last arm was illuminating.

But not much on the right arm. Would it be possible Brian to give us your analysis of right arm action?

 

[SteveT]

Here's my take on the take home messages:

1. The angle between left arm and shoulders at impact is pretty big (i.e. out towards 90 degrees)
2. The left arm does not need to be stuck to the chest to hit the ball well.

Re: 1. -- Yes the angle is large for the driver swing with a full body segmental sequence. However, for mid and short irons and a quiet lower body and active upper body, the angle between the lead arm and shoulder span can be quite tight.

Re: 2. -- Yes, the left arm can come off the chest and freewheel around the left shoulder joint -- both in a horizontal and vertical plane, however this introduces more variables in the downswing particularly in final release at the wrist joint and the position of the "normal" at impact.

Didn't Mike Jacobs say something about keeping the hands/shaft "below the table".. whereas a left arm flying off the chest will go "above the table"???

Who was it that called the "separation" of the left upper arm from the left pec a "death move".

I suspect the positioning of the left arm in the downswing is governed by body anatomy. LAWs of the Golf Swing defines the natural position of the left upper arm in the downswing for different anatomies.

 

[birly-shirly]

Here's my take on the take home messages:

1. The angle between left arm and shoulders at impact is pretty big (i.e. out towards 90 degrees)
2. The left arm does not need to be stuck to the chest to hit the ball well.

Both true. But if you read the book from which Brian took those photos, you'll find Jack saying that 2. is what he thought he was doing. He worked pretty hard to get rid of the feeling of his left arm separating off his chest.

You'll also see an emphasis on NOT having the shoulders open up too much before impact. Which Jack's pictures show and Brian's commentary highlights.

Brian - I think you said in the past that degrees of axis tilt and degrees that the shoulders are open at impact should be equal. Have you revised that view?

 

[Kevin Shields]

You may need video to show someone that they aren't doing it

 

[birly-shirly]

For sure. To hark back to everyone's current favourite 20 year old book - Faldo described time and again in The Winning Formula swing thoughts and feelings which he acknowledged didn't show up as visible on video until much later in the swing than he felt them.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Well, Brian opened a "can of worms" with this one........But let's simplify the discussion............the HORIZONTAL angle of the left arm to the chest/frontal plane at impact.........what should it be? In other words, how much "across" the chest, to the player's right, should the left arm be at impact? Or, in other words..........should the shoulders be sqaure or open to the swing direction at impact?....How open? What are the advantages and/or disadvntages of either? Research shows that Tour pro's shoulders are well open at impact, indicating that the left arm is still somewhat across the chest.

 

[SteveT]

Research shows that Tour pro's shoulders are well open at impact, indicating that the left arm is still somewhat across the chest.

I've suggested on this thread that the horizontal positions vary between clubs... between the driver, long irons and short irons.... and if its a fully sequenced swing or a quiet lower body swing as with short clubs. Also body anatomy largely influences the relationship between the lead arm and should span length.

What is so significant about Nicklaus' driver swing and the position of his left arm?