The Saucer Pass - Is this legal?

[mgranato]

But if that's NOT a scrape, then what is?

The rule posted says you cannot scrape the ball, it says nothing about scraping the club across the ground to hit the ball.

Aside from the unorthodox grip, the ball/club reaction looks just like a stand chip shot. Club is hitting the ball and the ball is leaving the face - I don't see any instance of the ball being pushed, scraped or scooped.

 

[MikeD2]

You forgot the pictures before your first shot.

In a manner that is almost giddy: "You just set up 18 inches behind the ball and just slide through..."

This game wasn't invented recently. There's a reason why that shot has never been seen in any event where USGA rules govern.

 

[mgranato]

Didn't forget, I figured what happened before impact was pretty clear to everyone. My point is that, according to rule 14-1 (posted earlier), there is no mention that the club cannot be slid across the ground. If you know of one that says so, then the shot would be "illegal", but I don't see that in 14-1.

Have you seen this shot before this thread? Saying that it has never been used (or at leas tried) in any USGA governed event is pretty bold - thats a whole lot of events, sure you want to stand by that statement?

 

[self-mastery]

Why should weekend golfers care about minor rules of the game? Is it really that serious? Just play--- leave the pro jockeying for fat guys with cycling shirts

 

[MikeD2]

You are, of course, right, MG. As Brian might say my data base is too limited to make such a sweeping statement, but it is a hypothesis nonetheless. So too, the concern about this "swing" is only directed at tournament play. What you do in the privacy of your own round is your own business. Enjoy.

But the words of a rule have to mean something. Webster's defines the verb "scrape" as follows: "to move in sliding contact with a rough surface." Aside from the fact this nice young pro describes his shot in exactly that way, there is a reason why it can only be performed on a tightly mown approach or collar. If the club were slid over another, rougher, surface the ground inconsistencies would create similar inconsistent contact with the ball.

I stick with my vote. No.

 

[jeffgladchun]

The rule posted says you cannot scrape the ball, it says nothing about scraping the club across the ground to hit the ball.

Aside from the unorthodox grip, the ball/club reaction looks just like a stand chip shot. Club is hitting the ball and the ball is leaving the face - I don't see any instance of the ball being pushed, scraped or scooped.

I think you could be right. Wouldn't a scrape mean that you scrape the ball along the ground? With this shot you're not doing that at all. The ball leaves the face of the club like a normal pitch shot.

Any of the Manzella guys feel free to chip in

 

[mgranato]

I’m at fault for not clarifying this from the get go – I’m in no way advocating this shot, care about this shot, or plan to use this shot, but I believe if someone has trouble chipping this shot does conform to the rules. However, in the year of “iffy” USGA rules and their interpretations, I think this is an interesting topic.

As far as the USGA (and NCAA) is concerned, I like to look at the strict letter of the rule, not its intent or spirit. As I read this rule, it’s clear to me (and maybe only me ) that it’s talking about what cannot be done to the BALL. I’m not aware of any stipulation in this rule as to what the CLUBHEAD can or cannot do on its way to striking the ball, provided it doesn’t do the push, scrape, or scoop thing to the ball.

In your judgment, is the BALL being pushed or scraped across the ground during this type shot?

And lastly, would you volunteer to try this shot in your next tournament?

 

[MikeD2]

Understood. I also agree this is an interesting question.

Under that narrow interpretation (focusing exclusively on the ball) I don't know that you could ever scrape a ball under the rules.

Maybe, to help crystallize the argument you could answer the question posed by Ripper. What would be a scrape under your reading of the rule?

 

[jeffgladchun]

Understood. I also agree this is an interesting question.

Under that narrow interpretation (focusing exclusively on the ball) I don't know that you could ever scrape a ball under the rules.

Maybe, to help crystallize the argument you could answer the question posed by Ripper. What would be a scrape under your reading of the rule?

Consider a putt, but instead of an impact where the ball leaves the face, you roll the ball on the face of the putter for a bit. Like a dealer at a blackjack table raking in your chips with that long stick thing they use.

 

[MikeD2]

TGM'ers believe low point should occur 4-6 inches after contact to sustain the line of compression on a well hit iron shot. Scrape?

 

[mgranato]

What would be a scrape under your reading of the rule?

Along the lines of what Jeff said. You see it all the time on the practice green with guys "raking" balls to and fro. It's also easy to do with irons (mid and long), but much more difficult to do with the higher lofted clubs. Hood the iron on the upper rear of the ball, then rake/scrape/guide it anywhere you want. The ball has to be scraped against something - the ground. It's pretty much an "along the ground" move - I don't see the ball getting in the air from a scrape.

As far as the low point comment, the club is continually moving down but the ball is not. The ball is sent upwards immediately (relatively speaking) by the clubs loft. The club and ball are in contact for a very short distance - nothing close to 4”-6”. Not a scrape.

 

[ggsjpc]

Pretty sure it's a push and not a scrape. Illegal is my interpretation. Similar to hitting a shot like billiards. It is not being swung at which would make it a push.

 

[mgranato]

Wouldn't a push be if you place the club at the back of the ball, then make a forward "swing"? If the forward swing is well under way before impact, wouldn't that make it a hit?

 

[ej20]

Pretty sure it's a push and not a scrape. Illegal is my interpretation. Similar to hitting a shot like billiards. It is not being swung at which would make it a push.

What would you call a short putt where the through stroke is longer than the backstroke?Pretty close to a push don't you think?But that would be the correct way to putt as taught by most instructors.

 

[ej20]

I wouldn't use this technique anyway.I would just use a putting stroke which would have the same effect and the quality of the ground behind the ball will have no bearing.

 

[ggsjpc]

Wouldn't a push be if you place the club at the back of the ball, then make a forward "swing"? If the forward swing is well under way before impact, wouldn't that make it a hit?

Nope.

A push has no "backswing".

Just like billiards and this shot.

Now maybe if he started at the ball dragged it back and went through but I doubt it because it still isn't a swing.

 

[ggsjpc]

What would you call a short putt where the through stroke is longer than the backstroke?Pretty close to a push don't you think?But that would be the correct way to putt as taught by most instructors.

No.

A push has no "backswing".

 

[Burner]

Its a scoop!

The guy just scrapes the club head along the ground before scooping the ball up in the air. Hence the grip with the hands wide apart.

 

[jpeck]

It doesn't appear to be a push to me, the club has speed before it hits the ball.

There is a 'backswing' of a kind, because he starts with the club behind the ball, then places it 18 inches back. Moe started with the club back this far, and he wasn't found to be cheating. The difference is that in the saucer pass the club maintains contact with the ground. In that regard, perhaps it could be interpreted as a scrape.

However, it looks like a lot of fun and I'd use it in a casual round of golf.

 

[Ringer]

I loved that change up video. That was awesome.